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Lockheed Martin CUDA Air-to-Air Missile

SpudmanWP

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That is what NCADE and SDB2 do (discard shroud at the last moment).
 

sferrin

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Avimimus said:
Why not shroud the seeker and then dump the shroud during the last phase?
That's exactly what THAAD does. I read once that with the IIR windows it becomes a race between hitting the target and the window failing. This was with things like HEDI and AIT where the heat loads on the windows were far higher than any AAM would see.
 

Void

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sferrin said:
Void said:
George has it.
Yeah, not so much. HEDI, AIT, and THAAD all use (or used) IR seekers at very high speeds within the atmosphere. SM-2 Block III also as a secondary IR seeker (and SM-2 isn't a slouch in the speed department).
The SM-II has an infrared seeker. On the side.

Altitude is the key. Incredibly.

Here is a nice graph of the relation between Mach number, altitude, and the stress it puts on a dome:


And the relevant chart with the R' values for different kinds of IR dome materials:


And finally, the effect of dome heating on a hypothetical seekers SNR ratio:
 

sferrin

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Void said:
sferrin said:
Void said:
George has it.
Yeah, not so much. HEDI, AIT, and THAAD all use (or used) IR seekers at very high speeds within the atmosphere. SM-2 Block III also as a secondary IR seeker (and SM-2 isn't a slouch in the speed department).
The SM-II has an infrared seeker. On the side.

Altitude is the key. Incredibly.
So what are you implying, that they jettison the IIR seeker if the target is at low altitude? ::) Also HEDI was a low alititude ABM with an IR seeker (as was AIT) or do you think CUDA is going to be traveling faster than those did? And that was 20+ years ago.
 

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sferrin said:
So what are you implying, that they jettison the IIR seeker if the target is at low altitude? ::) Also HEDI was a low alititude ABM with an IR seeker (as was AIT) or do you think CUDA is going to be traveling faster than those did? And that was 20+ years ago.
Cooled seeker. Different issue entirely.

Here is a good conference paper that talks about seeker options for the Endoatmospheric LEAP. I've quoted some relevant passages emphasis mine:


Page 3 said:
Hypersonic endoatmospheric operation presents significant issues for the use of EO seekers for end game guidance. Aero-optical (AO) effects, which are usually defined as boresight error (BSE), blur and jitter, are not expected to be as serious for an RF seeker. Figure 5 presents a top level description of the hypersonic flowfields surrounding a missile forebody and the effects on the target point spread function.

Page 6 said:
Hypersonic operation alsopresents significant performance issues for IR sensors. The shock and boundary layers distort incoming target signals, produce background radiance and elevate window temperatures (which increases background radiance).
Page 6 said:
Mitigation techniques range from the use of uncooled windows (trajectory shaping and minimizing exposure time) to active cooling. Active cooling is the most popular technique, but injecting
coolant into the airstream is a major contributor to AO effects
and has a large impact on vehicle size and weight (because of coolant storage and injection hardware).
And I said they don't work as well, not that they don't work at all.
 

sferrin

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Nobody said there weren't issues to deal with. Just that it wasn't an unsolvable problem.
 

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The heating issue does work both ways, the thicker the atmosphere, the hotter the target itself will get. This is particularly advantageous when attempting to track low flying supersonic missiles such as was intended for SM-2 Block IIIB, or a really high speed reentry vehicle that is going to end up outright incandescent to the naked eye. Against aircraft or tactical ballistic missiles its more of a mixed bag.
 

GTX

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Seemed obvious to me as soon as we saw photos showing the nose section. Thanks for posting though.
 

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Details emerge about Lockheed’s Cuda missile

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/details-emerge-about-lockheeds-cuda-missile-382670/
 

lantinian

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F-22 pilots in particular have been asking for greater beyond visual range weapons capacity since the Raptor first entered operational testing about a decade ago.

I am not an F-22 pilot but I am tired of waiting for the AIM-9X already .... I am now spoiled. I want 2 CUDAs in each of my side bays too ;D
 

sferrin

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I wonder what the scores would be like at Red Flag if F-22's got to count 14 internal AAMs instead of 8. B) And 12 on the F-35. . .
 

lantinian

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Increasing the kill probability and doubling the payload of the blue force main fighter would ..... tripple the amount of paperwork the red force has to fill :D
 

GTX

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Kind of pokes a hole in the argument sometimes put forward of the Flanker series being better because of their supposed high missile load out.
 

lantinian

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Indeed...a 12 A2A missiles load out is impressive.



No sure which Flanker series is this aircraft from as it apparently carries 14 A2A missiles, 3 A2S missiles and 6 Bombs



:D
 

Pioneer

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lantinian said:
Indeed...a 12 A2A missiles load out is impressive.



No sure which Flanker series is this aircraft from as it apparently carries 14 A2A missiles, 3 A2S missiles and 6 Bombs



:D
Sorry my friend, but this is not a 'Flanker', but an F-15 Eagle!And I only count 10 x a2a missiles (10 x AMRAAM's)! :eek: RegardsPioneer
 

bobbymike

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So question in reference to the Japanese F-15 in the picture but related to the F-35.

With highly degraded air defense and air supremacy just how much can the F-35 carry in relation to 4th G. Meaning can it go to war with internal weapons bays fully loaded and all external hardpoints? And how many external munitions can it carry.

I apologize ahead of time because I am sure it is posted somewhere in the 10,000 response F-35 threads but laziness.......I mean efficiently using my time makes it easier just to ask here, thanks!
 

lantinian

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bobbymike said:
With highly degraded air defense and air supremacy just how much can the F-35 carry in relation to 4th G. Meaning can it go to war with internal weapons bays fully loaded and all external hardpoints? And how many external munitions can it carry.
Yup, no problem carrying full internal + external loads simultaneously

Hope these help


 

bobbymike

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lantinian - thanks so much great illustration of its payload caoabilities.
 

SpudmanWP

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I found the roots of CUDA, and it was not in the depths of LM.


The earliest info that I could find (don’t worry, it will all tie together in the end) is from Feb2011:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2011PSA_AnnualReview/Day1ColDavisFinal.pdf
On page 14 there is a vague entry titled “Small Advanced Capabilities Missile” with production in the “far term”. No other info in the PDF talks about it.


Next up is another PDF from later in Sep2011 (page 24):
http://www.ndiagulfcoast.com/events/archive/37th_symposium/Day2/12WilcoxAirArmSymp2011.pdf
No detailed info but it does show SACM (1st use of the acronym) being used on both the F-35 and an AWACS. Not only does it show it shooting at a fighter, but also at in inbound missile (even from the AWACS).





Not much else was found till April 2014 (page8):
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2014SET/Wilcox.pdf
This is what it said about the goals of SACM
• Flexible hyper-agile airframes, high impulse propulsion, affordable wide field of view seeker, anti-jam guidance integrated fuze, aim-able kinetic and non-kinetic effects
• Increased A/C loadout ---> increased sortie effectiveness
• Increased Pwe with kinematic advantage & increased lethality


Finally, there is another PDF from Nov 2014 (page 18) where the tie to CUDA and the DARPA ADI (Air Dominance Initiative) program is made.
http://www.ndiagulfcoast.com/events/archive/40th_Symposium/AFRL_WilcoxAAS2014.pdf
Here is what it said
•  High Load-Out
•  AMRAAM Complement
•  Counter 4th /5th Gen A/C & Cruise Missiles
•  Low Cost
•  Working Collaboration with DARPA under ADI
There is a CGI graphic on page 18 showing what is a dead-ringer of the CUDA in the bay of the F-35.





Now it makes sense where the Dec2013 AW Article LM said:
"Both Cuda and SSTRR are being supported by independent research and development money and are being pushed as concepts of interest under the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency’s Air Dominance Initiative project."
 

bring_it_on

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Spud, I had shared the first document over at Keypub's F-35 section (iirc) a few years ago. Also, from the DARPA boss interview, she was quite clear that some of the preliminary efforts under the ADI would begin to show up in the budgets post 2015 or so.

Here is a Link:(21 min onwards)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8giv-1v54JU&list=WL#t=1266
 

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What is the X plane attack helicopter program he mentions?

Also, interesting about her mention of space assets for air dominance, I'm thinking space based radar able to provide air to air targeting to stealth aircraft that can then remain 'electronically silent'?
 

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bobbymike said:
What is the X plane attack helicopter program he mentions?

Also, interesting about her mention of space assets for air dominance, I'm thinking space based radar able to provide air to air targeting to stealth aircraft that can then remain 'electronically silent'?
Our good friend, Quellish mentioned using stealth aircraft as bi-static receivers for space-based radars over in the LRS-B thread.
 

bring_it_on

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bobbymike said:
What is the X plane attack helicopter program he mentions?

Also, interesting about her mention of space assets for air dominance, I'm thinking space based radar able to provide air to air targeting to stealth aircraft that can then remain 'electronically silent'?
Gen Mike Hostage mentioned Space assets as well in his interview to Colin Clark/breaking defense:

Allies are a key part of the Red Flag exercises, especially as the F-35 becomes the plane flown by most of our closest allies, from Britain to Israel to Australia and beyond. But the toughest, most realistic exercises at Red Flag occur when it’s only American pilots flying against each other.

During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”
http://breakingdefense.com/2014/06/gen-mike-hostage-on-the-f-35-no-growlers-needed-when-war-starts/3/
 

quellish

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bring_it_on said:
During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”



If someone were to look at what was overhead during those (and other) exercises, that someone could reach interesting conclusions about present and emerging capabilities. That may also inform someone as to why some potential adversaries are making particular development and procurement investments today.


Unrelated to that, yes DoD really *really* wants to have space based assets replacing platforms like the E-3 and JSTARS within the next 20 years. Space-based radar for air and ground surveillance offers capabilities that current platforms are unable to offer.
 

TomS

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bobbymike said:
What is the X plane attack helicopter program he mentions?
At a hunch, he's misremembering this:

http://www.darpa.mil/Our_Work/TTO/Programs/Vertical_Takeoff_and_Landing_Experimental_Plane_%28VTOL_X-Plane%29.aspx
 

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quellish said:
bring_it_on said:
During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”



If someone were to look at what was overhead during those (and other) exercises, that someone could reach interesting conclusions about present and emerging capabilities. That may also inform someone as to why some potential adversaries are making particular development and procurement investments today.


Unrelated to that, yes DoD really *really* wants to have space based assets replacing platforms like the E-3 and JSTARS within the next 20 years. Space-based radar for air and ground surveillance offers capabilities that current platforms are unable to offer.
Red Flag video I had no idea of the detailed fidelity of the tracking and monitoring systems, which they say includes space assets. Very cool stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVrQboP-FoQ
 

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What does the "wide field of view seeker" mean in the context on radar guided missiles? AESA?
 

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Raytheon awarded research contract for their version of CUDA
The U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory has awarded Raytheon a $14 million contract to research on two concepts for next-generation, air-launched, tactical missiles.

The Small Advanced Capability Missile (SACM) concept will enable future fighters to have high air-to-air load-out using a small size air frame. The project is similar to Lockheed Martin’s CUDA program which will double the number air-to-air missiles carried by the company’s two stealth fighters using a shorter missile.
Raytheon is now the third company to work on the Miniature Self-Defense Munition (MSDM) program with the award of this contract. The MSDM aims to give fighters a self-defense capability against incoming missiles by destroying it with a direct hit using the munition.
Source: http://aviationweek.com/awin/lockheed-reveals-new-air-launched-missile-concepts
 

SpudmanWP

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That's just an R&D contract, not an SDD one.
 

bring_it_on

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Their isn't a program of record, most likely just further refinement and perhaps a demonstration effort to support concept development. Lockheed can afford to do this on their own, in addition to Boeing if they think they feel that it is worth pursuing.
 

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bobbymike said:
quellish said:
bring_it_on said:
During those Red Flag-3 exercises they integrate space and cyber weapons into the fight, including those the F-35 possesses. Those capabilities make are “so effective that we have to be very careful that in a real world scenario we don’t hurt ourselves allowing them to play.”



If someone were to look at what was overhead during those (and other) exercises, that someone could reach interesting conclusions about present and emerging capabilities. That may also inform someone as to why some potential adversaries are making particular development and procurement investments today.


Unrelated to that, yes DoD really *really* wants to have space based assets replacing platforms like the E-3 and JSTARS within the next 20 years. Space-based radar for air and ground surveillance offers capabilities that current platforms are unable to offer.
Red Flag video I had no idea of the detailed fidelity of the tracking and monitoring systems, which they say includes space assets. Very cool stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVrQboP-FoQ
Those don't look like real time tracking, the rendering looks pre-calculated.
 

sferrin

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Interesting that CUDA seems to have shown up again at Sea Air Space '16
via James Drew
 

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bobbymike

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More Capability, More Capacity

—Will Skowronski6/21/2016

​The Air Force’s primary air-to-air missile will soon require recapitalization, Maj. Gen. Jerry Harris, Air Combat Command’s vice commander, informed lawmakers Saturday. In a prepared statement to the House Armed Services Tactical Air and Land Forces Subcommittee, Harris said the service’s medium-range AIM-120 is increasingly vulnerable to counter-measures and limits the effectiveness of the service’s fifth-generation aircraft. He noted the AIM-120 also has insufficient range when compared to newer, long-range adversary missiles. But missile capacity, not just capability, is also a concern. “Our aircraft lose effectiveness when they run out of missiles,” Harris said in his written statement. “As we look to the future, increased aircraft payloads and deeper magazines will be a driving requirement for our next generation aircraft.” In the recently released “Air Superiority 2030 Flight Plan,” Air Force planners included stand-off arsenal planes in a mix of systems that they believe will be required to maintain air superiority in the future. (For more on Air Superiority 2030 read the Aperture column in the May issue of Air Force Magazine.)
 

bring_it_on

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They have been disciplined enough to fund programs to address both longer ranged, faster MRAAM's (T3), and the CUDA class missiles. I think there is ultimately a need to pursue both, possibly concurrently.
 
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