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Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne and derivatives

Jemiba

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In this Lockheed advertisment the AH-56 is shown with an additional outline, giving
a deeper fuselage and it is advertised to be the basis for a transport for up to 30
passengers or as a ASW helicopter.
Are there any other pictures, drawings or photos of mock-ups of these versions ?
 

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Archibald

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Hmm got a list of AH-56 derivatives in Le Fana de l'aviation (August 2000, fantastic article on the cheyenne). But there's no pics sadly!!!
I think this picture could correspond to some of the projects in the magazine (I have to check!)
 

Dronte

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The only drawings of derivatives of the AH-56 that I know:

-Navy's combat rescue

-Twin engine

-Marines "twin pack" engine version

(source: Warbirdtech Series Volume 27-AH56 Cheyenne)

Nonmemory that the alluded source makes reference to the version asw
 

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boxkite

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In this Lockheed advertisment the AH-56 is shown with an additional outline, giving
a deeper fuselage and it is advertised to be the basis for a transport for up to 30
passengers or as a ASW helicopter.
Lockheed's proposed commercial version of the AH-56. (SOURCE: Hellman: “Helicopters and other VTOLs”, Garden City, N. Y., 1970). It should be the artist’s impression to Scott’s CL-1026.GIF post.
 

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boxkite

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This was from the cover of “American Aviation”, Jan 1968. (Jens, please ask Mike – he sent me this scan. Maybe he has the whole article. Keep me informed.) It’s the CL-1026 or the CL-1025??? The writing behind the cockpit is illegible. Did a CL-1025 compound helicopter design exist?
 

boxkite

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An artwork from “Der Flieger” 12/1965, titled “Project of an [Lockheed] ASW helicopter” – any relation to the AH-56 (although I don’t believe)? It looks like a pusher propeller instead of the tail rotor.
 

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Jemiba

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Judging the appearance, this ASW helicoopter comes quite close to the outline shown
in the advertisement. I see a pusher prop, too, but I can't see tail rotor ?
Another project, that may be related to the AH-56 is this 60-seater, although this
isn't mentioned, too .
(From Aviation Week 1965 9-17)
 

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boxkite

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"Der Flieger" 12/1965 calls it "Metroplan" (range 800 km, speed 600 km/h).
 

Jemiba

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And, shame on me, it can't be a AH-56 derivative ! The picture on my HD was just
called "60-seater", but I found it in an Interavia issue, which clearly says, that it is
a foldable rotor design ...
I really should tidy up my archive :-\
 

amsci99

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Here's a link to the XMH-4M, a paper project by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries utilising the Lockheed Rigid Rotor and AH-56A propulsion layout.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Technopolis/2415/sato.html
 

Jemiba

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"Here's a link to the XMH-4M"
Interesting project, thanks for that link ! Anyone, who can tell, what the description
tells us ? What was it intended for ? It seems, that it has foldable wings, so probably
a foldable rotor, too, because ohterwise folding the wings wouldn't make much sense.
Shipboard use ? Or just for easy stowage on the overcrowded japanese mainland ?

@Matej:
How much help do you expect from someone, who probably has an age
of much more than 90 years then ?


And we should always bear in mind : People, who are tidy, are just too lazy
for searching !
 

Skybolt

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Eheh, when Scott gets up to speed is unbeatable... ;D And I guess he found a treasure throwe of Lockheed designs...
 

Jemiba

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Eeh, I think, if realised, it would have had a rotor ? All those shaft hp just for the
pusher prop seem wasted to me ! Are there some estimated data for speed ?
 

Orionblamblam

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Jemiba said:
Eeh, I think, if realised, it would have had a rotor ?
Nope.

All those shaft hp just for the
pusher prop seem wasted to me !
A much smaller percentage fo the engine power would be required for the shaft... it'd be more of a straight turbojet.

[quote[
Are there some estimated data for speed ?
[/quote]

Sadly, no. The drawing is just about all there is.
 

amsci99

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Jemiba said:
"Here's a link to the XMH-4M"
Interesting project, thanks for that link ! Anyone, who can tell, what the description
tells us ? What was it intended for ? It seems, that it has foldable wings, so probably
a foldable rotor, too, because ohterwise folding the wings wouldn't make much sense.
Shipboard use ? Or just for easy stowage on the overcrowded japanese mainland ?
To the best of my knowledge, that is the site of the Japanese chapter of the American Helicopter Society and the XMH-4H was a study for a replacement for the Sikorsky S-55.

Orionblamblam - would really like to look at what you have. By the way, I have amassed quite a collection of Lockheed papers and articles on the rigid rotor system and the AH-56A (from an ex engineer who put them up for auction on eBay) and in the progress of converting them into pdf documents with the help of a document scanning outfit. Hope they would be ready by the end of the year. What I am lacking is Irwin Culver's notes on his prototype model for the rigid rotor which also happens to be the first RC helicopter model.
 

Jemiba

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The CL-1214 reminds me to the Sikorsky S-72X, which flew as a "conventional"
aircraft, too. But I still can't see the reason for this design, apart from use as
a test vehicle. ???
 

Orionblamblam

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Jemiba said:
... I still can't see the reason for this design, apart from use as
a test vehicle. ???
It was an early '70's design for a ground-attack plane (not the AX/A-10 project, but a later idea for a *cheap* attack craft). Since the AH-56 was on hand, components built and designed and proven to work, the thinking was that it would be a simple matter to build an airplane version of it. Similar thinking went into converting the UH-1 "Huey" into the AH-1 Cobra... this design just went a bit further.
 

Jemiba

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"It was an early '70's design for a ground-attack plane"
Good idea, a twin engined attack a/c with an additional "bring-me-home" engine !
At the risk of going off-topic again : Today I found in Icaré '71 a french design,
which bears a strong resemblance to the AH-56. Even looking more modern, due
to the use of a fenestron. It's designated SA-330, so I think, it would have used the
dynamic system of the SA-330 Puma. Anybody, who knows, if this design was really
influenced by the Cheyenne ?
 

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JAZZ

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SA-330 concept resembles the Westland WG-13 in some ways, which was to be based on Lynx componentry. The other thing, with a fenestrone it could be based more on the Dauphin. The Rooivalk is based on SA-330 Puma and is a large attack helicopter.
 

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Antonio

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http://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-AH-56A-Cheyenne-WarbirdTech-27/dp/1580070272
 

MIRAGE 4000

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very good on the Cheyenne :)

Few things on the S66... if someone have something ... (we could some information on Aviation Week in 1965, but no good drawing°
 

sferrin

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pometablava said:
http://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-AH-56A-Cheyenne-WarbirdTech-27/dp/1580070272
Another good one is the issue of Airtime Publishing's "Classic Wings" that has the Cheyenne as the cover story. Good stuff.
 

mz

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A pretty new Cheyenne video at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr89YxKhpI&feature=related
(There are many other subjects there too, and the user only recently joined, but that's offtopic.)
 

overscan

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Drawing of CL-1026 appears in Flying Review August 1968. "30 passengers at 230mph is the aim".

Mentions a high density (95 seater) version which would weigh 80,000lb, have 4 turboshaft engines and a 94ft diameter 5 blade main rotor.
 

sferrin

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mz said:
A pretty new Cheyenne video at youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHr89YxKhpI&feature=related
(There are many other subjects there too, and the user only recently joined, but that's offtopic.)
"this video has been removed. . ."



Here's one though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w85NNXAn_Y
 

hesham

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Jemiba said:
Judging the appearance, this ASW helicoopter comes quite close to the outline shown
in the advertisement. I see a pusher prop, too, but I can't see tail rotor ?
Another project, that may be related to the AH-56 is this 60-seater, although this
isn't mentioned, too .
(From Aviation Week 1965 9-17)
More info about Lockheed helicopter project;
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1965/1965%20-%200875.html
 

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Antonio

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More about CL-1026...

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1967/1967%20-%200921.html
 

yasotay

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Mr. Bond sir,

Thank you for all of the wonderful information.
 

Triton

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Was the cancellation of the Lockheed AH-56 Cheyenne on August 9, 1972 a mistake by the United States Army? Was the real cause of the cancellation political because of the United States Air Force's objection of the the United States Army having aircraft for the close air defense role?
 

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flateric

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You can just use Google typing something like 'Why AH-56 was cancelled?" and will get plenty pretty adequate answers, like:

Because of the advanced technologies in the AH-56 Cheyenne, the program ran into serious delays and cost overruns. Unfortunately, the Cheyenne experienced developmental difficulties with some of the new technology it employed. Thus, Congress was severely critical of the program. However, advocates of the AH-56 Cheyenne argued that the program was about to succeed, but it would still take several years for this aircraft actually to go into the field and help soldiers on the ground. Eventually, Lockheed had eliminated nearly all of the bugs but the Cheyenne languished under an awkward procurement process put in place by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara.

By the time the aircraft was ready for production in 1972, the Army was becoming interested in a helicopter with night and all-weather attack capability - a requirement that was not included in the Cheyenne contract. Congress then cancelled the program at a significant financial loss to Lockheed. Ten prototypes were completed before the program was terminated August 9, 1972 due to delayed development, rising costs, and the appearance of two competitive company-funded initiatives by Sikorsky and Bell. Most Cheyenne airframes ended up at Aberdeen Proving Grounds.

The Army wanted a smaller, more agile Advanced Attack Helicopter (AAH) with a less complicated fire control and navigation system. The new attack helicopter program announced in August 1972 drew from the combat experience of the Cobra and the developmental experience of the Cheyenne to specify an aircraft that could absorb battle damage and had the power for rapid movement and heavy loads. The helicopter would have to be able to fly nap of the earth and maneuver with great agility to succeed in a new antitank mission on a high-intensity battlefield. In December 1976 the Army selected the Hughes YAM-64 for production.
Rising development costs, delays in development and the arrival of two other viable alternatives to the AH-56 produced by Bell and Sikorsky forces the entire program to be effectively cancelled on August 9, 1972. Only ten AH-56 Cheyenne prototypes would ever be produced with several conducting powered flights and weapons testing.

In the end, the Army realized it had needed a less complicated combat system with the agility of a light helicopter. The integrated fire control and navigation systems would also have to be of the low-maintenance variety, leading up to the designation of the new Advanced Attack Helicopter (AAH) initiative. The Boeing Corporation (through McDonnell Douglas) would eventually step in with what was to become the recognizable AH-64 Apache series. The United States Army, already embroiled in the Vietnam conflict in Asia, would settle on the AH-1 HueyCobra for the duration of the war, partnered with militarized armed versions of the UH-1 Huey transport helicopters known as gunships.
You may want, for example, buy a book and learn much more about the reasons behind cancellation
http://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-AH-56A-Cheyenne-WarbirdTech-27/dp/1580070272
 

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overscan

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Grigori, I think you need to take a chill pill ;) The Warbirdtech is a great book though, agree with the recommendation.

The turf wars between the Army and USAF are an interesting topic in their own right. Could have seen the Northrop/Hawker Harrier in Army service.
 

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Triton

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My mistake about the RAH-56 designation. I know better that it was the AH-56. :-\ Must have had Comanche on my mind to add the R in my original post. ;D I fixed it now.

I know that the Comanche program had problems. But has there been a weapons program in recent memory that there weren't technical problems, cost overruns, and political debate?

Could the Army have made use of the Comanche during the Vietnam war? Would it have been a better gunship on the battlefield than the AH-1 Cobra?

The Hughes, now Boeing, AH-64 Apache might be a superior aircraft, but it was years away.

Interesting to see the Northrop/Hawker Harrier in United States Army livery.

I understand too that the United States Air Force wanted to take the A-10 Thunderbold II out of service before the Gulf War. Perhaps it would have been better if the United States Army had taken over the close air support role from the United States Air Force.
 
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