• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

K-25: Soviet Sparrow clone

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,863
Reaction score
4,782
Among the war booty retrieved from Vietnam were several examples of the AIM-7 "Sparrow". Work began in the second half on
1966 on copying the AIM-7 missile under the designation of K -25. Full-scale experimental design work on K-25 started after a party decree issued November 13, 1967. The Soviet counterpart to the AIM-7, the K-23, was already quite far along at the time, but copying a working US missile reduced technical risk and, being notably lighter than K-23, would reduce the weapons load of the MiG-23. Work on the K-25 was carried out by Vympel, developer of the K-23, but under two separate teams, with the K-25 team led by V.T. Korsakovym and the K-23 team led by V.A. Pustovoytova.

In order to simplify the copying process, rather than copying the original some substitutions for equivalent Soviet materials was accepted, but this caused problems. The development process was not smooth, but test firings were made in the early 1970s. However, K-23 was being accepted for service, and was designed to work with the MiG-23's Sapfir-23 radar, so K-25 was ruled out from the MiG-23 weapons system. However, while Russian sources normally portray the K-25 as a somewhat pointless design effort, in fact early iterations of the MiG-29 and Su-27 were drawn with the K-25, not the K-23, so clearly it was thought at the time that it would be potentially superior. By 1974 however, it was clear it was out of date, and not suitable for arming a new generation of aircraft. The effort wasn't wasted however; the experience from both K-23 and K-25 programs was fed into development of the new K-27 missile.

Photo attached from GosNIIAS museum from missiles.ru site.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_7711_fromCR2.jpg
    IMG_7711_fromCR2.jpg
    106.6 KB · Views: 451

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,863
Reaction score
4,782
Two versions of K-25 are known, Izdeliye 370 and Izdeliye 370M. The CW homing head PARG-30-VV (DV-109) was created by NII “Kulon”.

http://www.missiles.ru/foto_GosNIIAS_museum.htm
 

gollevainen

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
70
Reaction score
4
Which missile it is fo those displayed int he museum? The identical Sparrow copy?
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
overscan said:


Something for you Paul....translate.
copy&paste

Работы по ракете К-23 еще не успели полностью развернуться, как из воюющего Вьетнама был получен "подарок" - американская ракета AIM-7E "Спэрроу". Во время налета на порт Хайфон был сбит американский истребитель-бомбардировщик F-4. Он упал в море и затонул на небольшой глубине, благодаря чему сохранились неразрушенными подвешенные на нем ракеты.

Одна из ракет была доставлена в Москву и поступила на изучение. Другая ракета была "снята" с упавшего горящего самолета F-4 группой советских специалистов, находившихся во Вьетнаме. У ряда военных и гражданских специалистов возникла идея воспроизведения этой ракеты в отечественном образце наподобие ситуации "Сайдуиндер" - К-13.

Главный довод состоял в том, что на ракете AIM-7E уже использовалась головка непрерывного излучения, работающая на фоне земли, а разрабатываемая главным конструктором Е. Н. Геништой отечественная РГС-23 еще не показала своих качеств. Было принято решение о воспроизводстве - разработке ракеты К-25 как аналога AIM-7E "Спэрроу".

На основе тщательного сравнительного анализа характеристик ракет К-25 (AIM-7E) и К-23 институт НИИ-2 занял позицию отстаивания отечественной разработки. Основным аргументом при этом было то, что ракета AIM-7E представляет собой устаревшую модель и ее копирование означает шаг назад, в то время как американцы уже начали работы по модернизации AIM-7F.

Другим важным аргументом было то, что в РГС-23 используется более прогрессивный моноимпульсный метод обработки радиолокационного сигнала в отличие от метода конического сканирования в РГС ракеты AIM-7E. Правота позиции института была подтверждена временем, и в модификации AIM-7M (следующей за AIM-7F) американцы тоже перешли на моноимпульсный принцип, но с опозданием почти на десять лет.

Таким образом, удалось добиться продолжения работ по ракете К-23 параллельно с работами по К-25, что было продублировано постановлением от 17.11.67 г. Главным конструктором ракеты К-23 был назначен В. А. Пустовойтов. Началась параллельная конкурсная разработка двух ракет - К-25 и К-23, выполнявшаяся практически одним и тем же коллективом (за исключением головок самонаведения).

Создалась ситуация, позволявшая заимствовать оригинальные идеи, реализованные в зарубежной ракете, для улучшения собственной разработки. Однако из ракеты "Спэрроу" практически ничего заимствовано не было, хотя оригинальных технических решений в ней было использовано много. В разработке ракеты К-23 НИИ-2 участвовал с самого начала; исследования по этой ракете проводил большой коллектив специалистов под руководством Е. А. Федосова, Р. Д. Кузьминского, В. Ф. Левитина.

В 1973 г. ракета К-23 (под наименованием Р-23) была принята на вооружение истребителя МиГ-23. Параллельная разработка ракеты К-25 завершилась изготовлением нескольких опытных образцов и была прекращена в начале летных испытаний, после того как стало очевидным ее отставание по срокам и характеристикам от ракеты Р-23.

Ракета Р-23 около 10 лет сохраняла превосходство по тактико-техническим характеристикам над однотипными зарубежными ракетами по уровню эффективности в сложной информационной обстановке, помехозащищенности от всех известных типов активных совмещенных помех и в условиях отражений от подстилающей поверхности при атаке низколетящей цели. Только в 1982 г. ракета AIM-7M "Спэрроу" с доплеровской моноимпульсной головкой самонаведения достигла паритетного уровня с ракетой Р-23.
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,151
Reaction score
1,292
Создалась ситуация, позволявшая заимствовать оригинальные идеи, реализованные в зарубежной ракете, для улучшения собственной разработки. Однако из ракеты "Спэрроу" практически ничего заимствовано не было, хотя оригинальных технических решений в ней было использовано много.

"The situation allowed to borrow the original ideas realized in a foreign rocket, for an improvement of own design. However, practically nothing has been borrowed from a Sparrow, though it contained many original technical decisions."

What a language we have! I like it! If you think that K-25 looks very close to Sparrow, you are wrong - practically nothing was copied. ;D
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
flateric said:
Создалась ситуация, позволявшая заимствовать оригинальные идеи, реализованные в зарубежной ракете, для улучшения собственной разработки. Однако из ракеты "Спэрроу" практически ничего заимствовано не было, хотя оригинальных технических решений в ней было использовано много.

"The situation allowed to borrow the original ideas realized in a foreign rocket, for an improvement of own design. However, practically nothing has been borrowed from a Sparrow, though it contained many original technical decisions."

What a language we have! I like it! If you think that K-25 looks very close to Sparrow, you are wrong - practically nothing was copied. ;D

Geeez ;D They are saying that no technical ideas were transfered from K-25(AIM-7E) to K-23(R-23), bcs the AIM-7E version was technically inferior to R-23, even though the AIM-7E comprised many original solutions.

Nas Nedogonyat ;)
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,863
Reaction score
4,782
Though some ideas from K-25 were used on R-27. Food for thought there ;)

Technically inferior is not accurate really. R-23 had better ECCM due to seeker, slightly worse range and was larger/heavier. It used tail controls, which were familiar to Soviet designers, while K-25 needed powerful actuators to drive the all moving wings. More importantly, R-23 already worked, and was designed for the Sapfir-23 radar.

R-27 actually went to moving wings, with the mid mounted reverse sweep bow tie controls. R-77 then reverted to tail controls....
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
overscan said:
Though some ideas from K-25 were used on R-27. R-27 actually went to moving wings, with the mid mounted reverse sweep bow tie controls. R-77 then reverted to tail controls....

Yes indeed, but is this not enough evidence to prove that even the Sparrow aero.configuration was inferior to R-23 when later on they all went back to tail controls?
Both missiles were the same max. range class 30km head on, the R-23 had 25kg more weight but also 500mm more lenght with the same diameter. No doubt about it, the most important gear component on the R-23R, the seeker has been technically superior. Then why so much speculations or making up crappy and worthless stories like this one when taking into consideration above mentioned.

In order to simplify the copying process, rather than copying the original some substitutions for equivalent Soviet materials was accepted, but this caused problems.

I`m sorry to say that, but sometimes you remind me a lot of Tom Cooper from Acig and his endless hyping of soviet hardware in negative way.

Best regards
detonator

Here is also some food worth to translate.
По системе ракет К-27/К-27Э на этапе технических предложений был организован конкурс между КБ "Вымпел" и "Молния", который был выигран КБ "Вымпел". В эскизном проекте ракета К-27/К-27Э была представлена в вариантах нормальной аэродинамической схемы и схемы "утка", управляемой по всем трем каналам развитыми по площади рулями с обратной стреловидностью по передней кромке. ГосНИИАС поддерживалась "нормальная" схема.

Результаты сравнительного анализа показывали, что схема "утка" перетяжелена, переусложнена, имеет большее аэродинамическое сопротивление при нулевом угле атаки и худшее аэродинамическое качество. Однако в выборе схемы в силу ряда причин, в том числе не всегда технического порядка, победила линия КБ "Вымпел" и ЦАГИ, и ракета К-27/К-27Э была создана по существующей схеме. Жизнь показала, что схема оказалась малоперспективной, не получившей развития в последующих разработках.

Парадокс состоял в том, что от нормальной схемы ракеты К-23 отечественные разработчики перешли к схеме промежуточной между "уткой" и "поворотным крылом", близкой к схеме ракеты AIM-7 "Спэрроу", а американские разработчики отказались от схемы "Спэрроу" в пользу нормальной схемы при переходе к ракете AMRAAM.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,863
Reaction score
4,782
mrdetonator said:
overscan said:
In order to simplify the copying process, rather than copying the original some substitutions for equivalent Soviet materials was accepted, but this caused problems.

I`m sorry to say that, but sometimes you remind me a lot of Tom Cooper from Acig and his endless hyping of soviet hardware in negative way.

Best regards
detonator

I'm sorry but that is arrant nonsense Martin. The line you isolate is directly from Russian sources on the K-25 (Markovsky,etc) and nothing of my own interpretation.

The K-25 wasn't better than the K-23 overall; that much is obvious. The Russians weren't above producing copied designs (K-13, R-13M) where there was no equivalent domestic alternative. Some parts of the Soviet military-industrial complex thought US weapons were superior; Fedosov (GosNIIAS) who had been in charge of the K-13 project was one. Note that Mikoyan and Sukhoi were busy putting K-25s on their early design concepts for the PFI program.

Once it came to testing, it was clear there was no advantage in the K-25 over the K-23as an overall weapons system.

Thats not the same as saying it was inferior in all respects, and some of the technologies from K-25 were carried over to K-27, just as the best parts of the K-23 were carried over.
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,151
Reaction score
1,292
My fault - I just didn't look at the context while translating. Did we actually use Sparrow tech - I leave it up to Overscan who knows much more, and Muxel, who surely knows even more (if he can tell us).
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
overscan said:
I'm sorry but that is arrant nonsense Martin. The line you isolate is directly from Russian sources on the K-25 (Markovsky,etc) and nothing of my own interpretation.
Then I apologize for putting you in the same bag with Tom Cooper. ;)

Anyway, after reading the story written by V.Markovskij again your own interpretation still seems to me a bit ripped out of the context. You`ve picked out sentences leaving the impression that if soviets were able to manage problems with reproducing original systems(materials) of the captured Aim-7E, they would get clearly superior missile at the end. I shall apologize to you again when I`m wrong, but this is what I thought you ment.

From V.Markovskij
copy & paste
Копирование американского образца требовало не только воспроизведения конкретной
конструкции, но и организации выпуска предельно идентичных материалов и, что намного
сложнее, элементной базы бортовой аппаратуры. Кроме того, эту аппаратуру следовало увязать с
бортовой РЛС "Сапфир-23". Наряду с этими текущими трудностями сказались и более общие
соображения, не способствующие форсированию работ по К-25. Уже в то время у американцев
завершалась разработка более совершенного варианта "Сперроу" AIM-7F. Воспроизводя
предшествующую модификацию, советские специалисты заведомо обрекали себя на отставание от
США. По ряду решений американская ракета явно уступала К-23.Наконец, учитывалось и то
обстоятельство, что воспроизведение зарубежного образца не могло быть отмечено на столь
высоком уровне, как создание оригинальной отечественной ракеты.


I`ve tried to make a translation.
The Copying of American model demanded not only the reproduction of the specific design of the missile and setting up the production of identical materials, but what`s more complicated the component basis of the missile on-board "guidance" system. The missile on-board system also had to be coupled with the RLS Sapfir-23. Due to such complexity a mutual opinion originated not to support works on the K-25. During that time Americans finished works on the advanced version of the Sparrow missile, the AIM-7F. Therefore by reproducing the previous modification the AIM-7E, soviet specialist were purposely making the lag behind the USA. The American missile was clearly inferior to the K-23 in many design solutions. At last when taking into account circumstances that copying a foreign missile example could not be done with high degree of quality as that of original home-made product.

I hope with this view you get a different impression what V.Markovskij wanted to say in that article you read and therefore why Russian sources normally portray the K-25 as a somewhat pointless design effort.
Note that Soviets, especially the OKB MIG had experiences with the development of the K-9-155 missile which showed similar aerodynamics scheme as the Sparrow missile although with not all moving wings. It is also interesting to say that when looking the new book "Istrebitel Su-27 natchalo istorii" there is not a single word about the K-25, the predecessor of K-27. Regarding the question what was used from K-25 to develop the K-27 V. Markovskij answers.

....в частности исследования по аэродинамической схеме, близкой к поворотному крылу и по гидравлическому рулевому приводу, были использованы в ракетах семейства К-27.
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,151
Reaction score
1,292
We are starting to move into delicate area of how many and how much Soviet designs were copy-cat tech. It's endless and not much productive. I always was wondering of examples of reverse copying (if ever existed), BTW.
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
На основе тщательного сравнительного анализа характеристик ракет К-25 (AIM-7E) и К-23 институт НИИ-2 занял позицию отстаивания отечественной разработки. Основным аргументом при этом было то, что ракета AIM-7E представляет собой устаревшую модель и ее копирование означает шаг назад, в то время как американцы уже начали работы по модернизации AIM-7F.

In case of the Aim-7E there was not much to gain(they didn`t say nothing), apparently they were interested to verify the rare "UTKA" aerodynamics scheme with all moving wings. After not much successful missile K-9 they started the K-25 development mainly due to this reason.
 

mrdetonator

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
215
Reaction score
3
Website
www.lietadla.com
flateric said:
We are starting to move into delicate area of how many and how much Soviet designs were copy-cat tech. It's endless and not much productive. I always was wondering of examples of reverse copying (if ever existed), BTW.
You misunderstood. There are two views regarding the matter of K-25 development, his and mine.
You do have your own opinion about that, do you?...or you again leave it up to Overscan who knows much more.
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,151
Reaction score
1,292
Hell with the missiles - I'm not spook with 'em as I said. Just my right eye begin tickling every time I hear that bullshit that we didn't copycat anything ('OK, may be, except that damn B-29') and it's just aerodynamic that dictates the same decisions. GRU then wouldn't spent so much time, money and field agents lives trying to get all that stuff, if designers didn't need that stuff at all. 'Oh, there are many interesting stuffies, thanks for that, comrades, but you know, we will not use that Sparrow junk at all. Hmm, you know what? Bring us Phoenix next time, OK? May be something of it we can use - say, some nuts and bolts color scheme." And every article you read of the things like this - everywhere we didn't copy anything. That hypocrisy sucks.

At least Chinese don't make attempt to say that too definitive.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
12,863
Reaction score
4,782
The K-25 was intended for the earliest Su-27 variants only, but information on the K-27 was slow in arriving so K-25 may have been used longer as a size placeholder.
 

Avimimus

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
1,979
Reaction score
99
Its actually quite remarkable how different a lot of Soviet designs are (and aerial doctrines) - shows very independent thinking.
 

r16

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
377
Reaction score
19
it was on an Air International article, probably about Vympel in the early 2000s and which just maybe ı could find to have proof , the missiles copied were '7Ms which the Russians dug up from Phantom wrecks in rice paddies of Vietnam (along with the J-79s that went into become the engines for Su-20s.) No doubt the Russians couldn't trust them . All those chips they couldn't produce themselves .

original isn't it ? Though the real cause would be a typewriter mistake on the part of the writer and the editors missing it . ı won't be blamed for that one ...
 

Similar threads

Top