Jumo coupled engine Projects

Wurger

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Hi guys,

the image portrays several innovative features, worth posting here. It represents the Dornier P 252.01. Besides the interesting sickle-bladed propellers, the engines are coupled Jumo 213`s. Does anyone knows their designation? Or other Jumo designs around this configuration?

Image taken from Friedrich Georg`s "Unternehmen Patentenraub 1945", Grabert Verlag.
 

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lark

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Be carefull with Georg Friedrich's 'histories' Würger..
 

Wurger

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Hi Lark :),

I am aware of that, but in this case this is genuine stuff, no speculation or other kind of junk.
 

red admiral

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I'm confused as the picture shows two engines. They don't seem to be mechanically linked together.
 

Wurger

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Hello :),

but they are. Text from http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5890365/claims.html
"A clutch-type coupling which may be placed between two engines that is
capable of allowing the two coupled engines to operate at different
rotational speeds providing unitized operation of said engines". Daimler-Benz used the same configuration on several other projects, as seen in the later edition of "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke". The japanese went through to hardware stage with the Kawasaki Ki-64. See here:

http://www.j-aircraft.org/xplanes/
 

Justo Miranda

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Here Macchi Castoldi MC 72 Schneider Racer an Fiat AS-6 coupled engine
 

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Wurger

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Hi Justo :D,

also see

"S" - high-speed bomber by V.Bolkhovitinov (1937-41)" thread in this forum. The soviet "sparka" tandem engine.
 

Wurger

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Hi,

more on the way. The first image is a Daimler-Benz project, the DB 615/I. The second is a legitimate Jumo coupled turbojet/turboprop, the Jumo 022Z ( Z stands for zwilling, twin). taken from Kyrill von Gersdorff`s latest edition of "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke", Bernard&Graefe Verlag. Enjoy.
 

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red admiral

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So the front engine outputs into a shaft which is connected to a hydraulic variable speed clutch. This then outputs into another shaft which is fed into the back of the rear engine and transmitted through the crankshaft.The drive then continues aft along a single shaft. ?

The Fiat AS.6 used in the Macchi C.72 isn't a coupled engine as the only shared parts is the induction and carburation system which runs off the rear engine. The front engine isn't mechanically linked and there are two drive shafts running concentrically.

The Schneider Tropy Story by Edward Eves has a load of information on the AS.6 and Rolls-Royce R as well as a few other engines. Its just difficult to find a copy.
 

Nick Sumner

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RA, I have a copy of the Eves book - if you would like me to look anything up just let me know.
 

red admiral

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Nick Sumner said:
RA, I have a copy of the Eves book - if you would like me to look anything up just let me know.

Me too, its a great book and the slight rip in the cover meant £10 off the cost.
 

Justo Miranda

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From "UNKNOWN! Nº 5"
 

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Justo Miranda

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Arsenal VB 15 project ,with two coupled Jumo 213A engines
From "Les avions de combat français" by Jean CUNY , DOCAVIA Nº 28
 

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Justo Miranda

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From http://www.airwar.ru/enc/spyww2/late299.html
Latecoère 299 A with two coupled Hispano-Suiza 12 Z
 

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Wurger

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Hi Justo ;D,

excellent, as usual. I already knew your great "Unknown Nr.5".
 

Jemiba

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According to FlugRevue 9/1973, the engines for the P.252 were either DB63LA or Jumo 213J.
There's no mention of coupled engines, just of a development of the basic Do 335, with two
pusher props, instead of the pull/push arrangement.
 

Wurger

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The engines depicted are clearly Jumo 213, and they are clearly coupled. What would you suggest insted, Jemiba?
 

Jemiba

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The shaft of the forward engine is running through the hollow shaft
of the rear engine, I think. Not unusual for twin engined layouts with
contra props, but no coupled engine, as there is no clutch or gear,
as for example was in the DB 613. I'Ve attached the 3-view from the
mentioned FlugRevue, as the engine arrangement is shown quite clearly
there, too.
Maybe it's just a matter of definition ? But for me, coupled engines work
on a single prop or on a common gear. ???
 

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Wurger

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Hi Jemiba,

Probably you are right :-[. So much for the this coupled Jumos :'(. Nevertheless, I know a project from Junkers that might apply: the EF021/3. It would be a passenger plane with, if I remember my sketchy german, double engines. No data on the engines, tough. Can someone help?
 

Jemiba

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Yes, you're right, according to Wolfgang Wagner "Hugo Junkers, Pionier der Luftfahrt,
seine Flugzeuge", the EFo-21-3 was a design with 6 engines of 1500hp each, arranged
in three pairs and each pair driving a single prop. Apart from the gear, obviously a clutch
was planned, as the engines of a pair "could work coupled or independently".
(Drawing from the mentioned book)
 

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Hi,

that`s the one. The engine gondolas are slim, and they show an exhaust row near the propeller gear, so the engines are most possibly in tandem.
 

Jemiba

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Sorry, the type of engines used isn't mentioned, only the engine power.
1500 hp for each. Apart from a tandem arrangement, I could only think
of a system similar to the DB 613, which was of double inverted V configuration.
Judging the drawing, both rows of exhausts would have been on the same
height and position, so maybe left row -> left engine, right row -> right engine ?
But judging from so small a drawing is very speculative, I'm afraid
 

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Out of a matter of interest, does anybody know of any other projects, apart from the He177 which utilised the Daimler-Benz DB 606 or 610 coupled engine? I was wondering of any consideration had ever been given to any fighter or fight-bombers using these engine. While I'm aware their failure in the He177 had more to do with the way they were mounted, rather than necessarily the engines themselves, I wonder why they appear never have been used anywhere else.
 

archipeppe

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Jemiba said:
Yes, you're right, according to Wolfgang Wagner "Hugo Junkers, Pionier der Luftfahrt,
seine Flugzeuge", the EFo-21-3 was a design with 6 engines of 1500hp each, arranged
in three pairs and each pair driving a single prop. Apart from the gear, obviously a clutch
was planned, as the engines of a pair "could work coupled or independently".
(Drawing from the mentioned book)

Interesting architecture, this aircraft seems to be an SM-82 re-engined with the SM-84 stylish tail....
 

Nick Sumner

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rickshaw said:
Out of a matter of interest, does anybody know of any other projects, apart from the He177 which utilised the Daimler-Benz DB 606 or 610 coupled engine? I was wondering of any consideration had ever been given to any fighter or fight-bombers using these engine. While I'm aware their failure in the He177 had more to do with the way they were mounted, rather than necessarily the engines themselves, I wonder why they appear never have been used anywhere else.

IIRC the He 119 used a DB 606 and there were many projects derived from this design. The Ju 288 also flew with DB 610s and (IIRC) DB 613s.
 

moin1900

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Hi
A few questions about the Jumo 022Z.
Was the Jumo 022Z turboprop a World War 2 or a postwar project ?
Was there an aircraft project that should use the Jumo 022Z ?
Data ? Lenght ? Power ? etc. ? Sideview ?
Maybe someone can help ?
I only know the Jumo 022.
http://hugojunkers.pytalhost.com/ju_jumo022_a1.htm
Many greetings
 

sagallacci

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The Me261 had DB606 or 610s and like the Ju288, which did fly with them, the other "BomberB" designs at least considered coupled engines. I keep on thinking that other projects that had hopes for the Jumo222 also considered coupled engines as alternatives.
 

edwest2

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This aircraft appears on pages 96 and 97 of Band III, Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe, Schlachtflugzeuge und Kampfzerstoerer 1935-1945, by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode. Engines listed are: 2 x Daimler-Benz DB 603 LA von je 2000 PS oder 2 x Junkers Jumo 213 GJ von je 2300 PS mit zwei dreiflugligen VDM Pfeil-Verstell-Luftschrauben von 3,20 m Durchmesser (im Notfall absprengbar).
 

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Referring back to the Do335 concepts, I'd suggest that the art shouldn't be taken too literally in the sense of the drive coming out of the rear of the engine. The Jumo didn't have a rear drive, and routing a shaft through the motor cannon access from the reduction end of the front engine would have been a needless technical hassle. More likely both engines would have been simply pointed aft with a conventional drive coming off of them. Then, running the shaft through the rear engine's motor cannon access to the contraprop group would seem to be a "relatively" simple arrangement. Possibly, the artist was trying to anticpate the issue of opposite rotation and thought pointing the engine the other way was the solution to rotation, not realizing that an alternate reduction end would give you the desired rotation.
In general, any number of these concept sketches include some after the fact interpretive additions, often based on only some text references. Illustrators rather than engineers are doing the art, and more than a little guess work can be involved.
 

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