JMR (Joint Multi-Role) & FVL (Future Vertical Lift) Programs

yasotay

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What is "Army’s ability to penetrate anti-access, area denial (A2AD) environments" if it doesnt have a CONUS to theatre capability like the Karem would have had?
A fair point, and one I suspect the Army is trying to deal with going forward. One of the reasons that the current President has gone to such lengths to re-energize alliances and partnerships is the understanding that we are going to have to start somewhere other than the objective country/area. I suspect that logistics will be a tough area. While it is great that you can fly a tactical air vehicle vast distances, if the fuel and ammo, maintainers, and command and control elements are not there already or landing shortly after, your flying machines won't do much but be targets.
 

jsport

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What is "Army’s ability to penetrate anti-access, area denial (A2AD) environments" if it doesnt have a CONUS to theatre capability like the Karem would have had?
A fair point, and one I suspect the Army is trying to deal with going forward. One of the reasons that the current President has gone to such lengths to re-energize alliances and partnerships is the understanding that we are going to have to start somewhere other than the objective country/area. I suspect that logistics will be a tough area. While it is great that you can fly a tactical air vehicle vast distances, if the fuel and ammo, maintainers, and command and control elements are not there already or landing shortly after, your flying machines won't do much but be targets.
Back in the DARPA, RAND, Carlisle Army After Next (AAN) texts, minimizing logistics and even logistics bases off shore ie the very minimum on-shore footprint w/ no guarantee of any airfields were described. Those texts understood what many cruise and ballistics missiles meant.
 

DWG

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1XIuQk70k&feature=emb_title


New Defiant demo video of a stationary hover sling lift of roughly half the weight the UH-60 is rated for.
An article to accompany the video: https://verticalmag.com/news/sb1-defiant-lifts-weight-of-mobile-rocket-launcher/

I'd say it's good progress for the SB team

MLRS is about 25 tonnes, so it's definitely not lifting "an external load representing a tracked guided-rocket launcher". 2.4 tonnes is probably about right for a single MLRS pod, and is in the ballpark for the new infantry squad vehicle (don't think Hummer, definitely don't think Bradley, think stripped down Landrover)
 

shin_getter

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Brigadier General Walter Rugen said:
“The FARA and its ecosystem is really our penetration force in the lower tier of the air domain. That force is going to be able to find, fix and finish pacing threats,” says Rugen. “We’ll generate the ability for other players across the joint force to maneuver in that freed-up airspace. Then we’ll start disintegrating [the enemy forces] and open up a corridor.”

“And really, I don’t think Apache participates in the penetration phase. I think FARA and the FARA ecosystem does that… If we’ve generated that joint force freedom of maneuver and our heavy attack assets are moving forward, which includes the Apache, we’re winning.”

“It’s just like the Air Force is saying with their 4th Gen fighters. If we generate that freedom of maneuver we’re winning. Until we do that with our future capability [FARA], the Apache has issues because it lacks the reach of the advanced rotorcraft configurations.”
I've read some ideas about offensive operations, and it still hits when I see it laid out like that myself.

The helicopter is suppose to do SEAD. Can it do it?

Against traditional land vehicles with line of sight sensors and weapons, there are gaps that can be exploited. However that is not the expected future environment. The Iranian loitering turbojet surface to air missile that was recently smuggled to Yemen is the kind of weapon to be expected.

One idea is to use ALE to scout ahead to serve as a protective screen for expensive helicopters. That may work against trucks that might as well be static, but it would not work against an opponent drone force that is maneuvering at comparable speeds, as the few ALE do not have wide area air search sensors leaving huge gaps. There is a huge gaggle of ISR drones, loitering munitions, counter cruise missile sensors and likes all at different attitudes that makes effective concealment impossible.

Of course, concealment is not the only means to accomplish the mission: there is maneuver and defeat.

A helicopter does not have a big margin of a speed advantage against many persistent drones and is hopeless against an airframe designed for (dash) speed at a tiny fraction of the cost. The odds of a deep penetrating airframe managing to maneuver out of a kill chain by breaking track is unlikely given the slow speeds and large signature against large numbers reasonable speed sensors at the best of times.

Then the helicopter can choose to fight. No helicopter can hope to hardkill a SAM battery worth of missiles, it has to defeat sensors detecting it, up to the range it can be detected. This means stealth, large sensors and long range weapons, EW, DEW to gain detection advantage over opponents. This will also cause price to explode as a high cost for weight aircraft now have to lift a stupid amount of power hungry systems, and all that wouldn't work against passive detection from the ground.
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Ultimately an airframe with low speed, high sensor signature and high cost for payload operating alone (ahead of supporting friendly forces) against faster airframes with low sensor signature at lower cost for payload supported by huge payload of land vehicles should never have been in doubt.

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If given a chance for clean sheet helicopter in the modern environment I'd probably try to fit a huge AESA on it and tie every CEC/battle management capability to it. Survivability would come from flying it over divisions worth of AA hard and soft kill systems. That'd be a completely different class of helicopter and operating concept though....
 

jsport

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a vtol UCRAS (drone air superiority and attack the launch sites) launched from a long range Apache VTDF and or the Karem scout troop carrying gunship is an idea.. These current creatures are so risk free as to be nearly useless in HIC. industrial welfare programs..
 

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Some quotes
Brigadier General Walter Rugen, Director of the Army’s Future Vertical Lift Cross-Functional Team, said in an interview that the “critical path” in future multi-domain operations is the Army’s ability to penetrate anti-access, area denial (A2AD) environments. According to Rugen, Apache is not the aircraft that will do this.

“The FARA and its ecosystem is really our penetration force in the lower tier of the air domain. That force is going to be able to find, fix and finish pacing threats,” says Rugen. “We’ll generate the ability for other players across the joint force to maneuver in that freed-up airspace. Then we’ll start disintegrating [the enemy forces] and open up a corridor.”

“And really, I don’t think Apache participates in the penetration phase. I think FARA and the FARA ecosystem does that… If we’ve generated that joint force freedom of maneuver and our heavy attack assets are moving forward, which includes the Apache, we’re winning.”

“We don’t feel the Apache has the ability to operate from the relative sanctuary that the FVL [aircraft] can. We’re going to have to live with the current fleet for a while… Truly, most of our integration work, most of our studies, modeling and war-gaming has been tying the two future [FVL] platforms together, not necessarily diligently finding a place for Apache because there’s a capability gap there that we need to close with reach. Apache won’t be in our highest end fights until FARA and FLRAA can generate that freedom of maneuver.”

“It’s just like the Air Force is saying with their 4th Gen fighters. If we generate that freedom of maneuver we’re winning. Until we do that with our future capability [FARA], the Apache has issues because it lacks the reach of the advanced rotorcraft configurations.”

Again, this begged the question as to whether there has been any thinking about joint tactics, particularly if, as Rugen says, FARA will “outsource lethality.” Rugen’s answer suggests that it will be an ad hoc process.

I really wonder how such conclusions were even possible

The Army now publicly suggesting that FARA is now desired to perform actual AH-64 missions has got to be head-into-wall smashing news for Bell and Sikorsky. They have both literally been put into a box (40'x40' design requirement) as well as mandating a single engine design since FVL CS1 inception.

This is one of the more flagrant moments of late-cycle requirements creep to date on the FVL program.
 

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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J1XIuQk70k&feature=emb_title


New Defiant demo video of a stationary hover sling lift of roughly half the weight the UH-60 is rated for.
An article to accompany the video: https://verticalmag.com/news/sb1-defiant-lifts-weight-of-mobile-rocket-launcher/

I'd say it's good progress for the SB team

From the linked article:

Both Defiant and Valor arose from the Joint Multirole Technology Demonstration (JMR-TD) program that saw each operational prototype amass significant flight time and demonstrate speed and agility beyond the reach of conventional rotorcraft.

Both prototypes amassed "significant flight time" and demonstrated agility???

5605b2ba1316b07ae652c4ef637ed77f.gif
 

yasotay

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"No helicopter can hope to hardkill a SAM battery worth of missiles" I have heard this for almost 40 years. Yet UAV, flying at altitude, with no cover, have done a lot of hard killing of "a SAM battery worth of missiles". Certain middle-eastern country have repeatedly done exactly what you say cannot be done in one of the worlds most dense air defense environments. So rotorcraft using terrain and other elements of military operational capability are not able to survive, how non-maneuvering flying things that are in blue sky can do the job? Recall that most of the worlds air defense systems are NOT designed to deal with low flying things. Emitting energy in specific wavelengths or sequences is like turning on a flashlight in the dark. You may see what is in the beam, but all of the things not in the beam see you.
I agree that "loitering turbojet surface to air missile(s)" are a new factor, but I do not think they are analogous to the maxim machine gun.

Oh and... what @sferrin said.

@shin_getter - I do agree with designing into a box. Not many thought that a good idea.
 

jsport

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1627317698711.png
Piasecki touts winged compound helicopters for Future Vertical Lift | News  | Flight Global
1627317867660.png
 

AeroFranz

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Beat me to it. I have no illusions about the level of effort to bring to fruition required by the extensive mods of this bird...but it's an interesting thing to consider. In the balance it may be a better solution than taking a small reconnaissance platform that is still in its early stages, yet as opportunely mentioned a couple of posts above already totally boxed in as far as dimensions and power are concerned.
When Ed Heinemann negotiated the contract for the A-4, he and the Navy agreed that any pound of extraneous fixed equipment the Navy decided to add was going to be taken out of fuel for the mission. This was way to avoid late-in-the-game requirement creep. It worked pretty well, i think.
 

yasotay

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I suspect at the moment that Boeing has been politely asked to put this work into the big vault. However I also suspect that Boeing has put its work on the front shelf of the big vault realizing the US Army's history regarding development of scout helicopters. Nonetheless, given the expectation that it will likely take at least a couple decades to bring on new rotorcraft and build them in numbers, I expect there will be at least one update to all of the existing fleets of helicopters.
 

F-14D

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View attachment 661970
Oh well another aeroscout program down in flames.

Once is happenstance (RAH-66 Comanche)
Twice is coincidence (ARH-70 Arapaho)
Three times is enemy action (AAS-72 etc)
Four times is ???? (FARA)


1628035679587.png

"I knew that phrase would come in handy one day" ;)


Five times is even more ????? (Don't forget the OH-58F-- counting the F and the F Block II as just one)
 
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DWG

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View attachment 661970
Oh well another aeroscout program down in flames.

Once is happenstance (RAH-66 Comanche)
Twice is coincidence (ARH-70 Arapaho)
Three times is enemy action (AAS-72 etc)
Four times is ???? (FARA)


View attachment 661992

"I knew that phrase would come in handy one day" ;)


Five times is even more ????? (Don't forget the OH-58F-- counting the F and the F Block II as just one)

I thought I was forgetting one!
 

Spyclip

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I hope they remember to remove the pylons at the end of the day before swiveling the wing...

 

F-14D

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I thought I was forgetting one!


Wait! Wait! We both forgot one! They started FARA because they found out that the Apache (which is what they're currently using as the OH-58 replacement) really doesn't work in that role.

SIX!!!
 

DWG

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I thought I was forgetting one!


Wait! Wait! We both forgot one! They started FARA because they found out that the Apache (which is what they're currently using as the OH-58 replacement) really doesn't work in that role. And arguably Apache, twice!

SIX!!!

Hang on a minute, they first tried that Apache as substitute scout gig while they were waiting for the OH-58Ds, didn't they? That's only 25-30 years or so to figure out it doesn't work.
 
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yasotay

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Gents, The Apache only became the scout when the Army Aviation budget was cut for funds needed for (then) current operations. A very painful and disliked decision (even by those who made it) was made to retire the OH-58D as opposed to bits and pieces across the fleets. OH-58D was the oldest aircraft in the Army Fleet and the operational tempo was wearing out already tired airframes. The Army said it would do the reconnaissance mission with Apache because that was all that they had. This was translated within DoD and then on to Congress as the Apache COULD do the reconnaissance mission. It can do the mission, but if you are doing recon you are not doing attack helicopter missions.
 
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F-14D

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Gents, The Apache only became the scout when the Army Aviation budget was cut for funds needed for (the) current operations. A very painful and disliked decision (even by those who made it) was made to retire the OH-58D as opposed to bits and pieces across the fleets. OH-58D was the oldest aircraft in the Army Fleet and the operational tempo was wearing out already tired airframes. The Army said it would do the reconnaissance mission with Apache because that was all that they had. This was translated within DoD and then on to Congress as the Apache COULD do the reconnaissance mission. It can do the mission, but if you are doing recon you are not doing attack helicopter missions.

That may be 100% true, and indeed how we got here. But it doesn't change that the most recent "solution" to the OH-58 replacement issue was to announce that the AH-64 would be doing the Kiowa's mission. That became the fifth attempt to replace the OH-58 and it not being a great success is how we got FARA, making the latter the sixth attempt. 1628144612821.jpeg
 

Moose

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Hydroman

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View attachment 661970
Oh well another aeroscout program down in flames.

Once is happenstance (RAH-66 Comanche)
Twice is coincidence (ARH-70 Arapaho)
Three times is enemy action (AAS-72 etc)
Four times is ???? (FARA)


View attachment 661992

"I knew that phrase would come in handy one day" ;)


Five times is even more ????? (Don't forget the OH-58F-- counting the F and the F Block II as just one)

I thought I was forgetting one!
Not an Army problem but unfortunately an Army tradition it seems like. Hopefully, these two programs go through but if not, they may have to buy Robinson and call it a day........
 

yasotay

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@Hydroman - in some circles, Army Aviation is know as "The Home of the Horse Cavalry".

@Moose - I have nothing to base my agreement with you on other than Bell's having demonstrated electric anti-torque and understanding that they are still working electric propulsion eVTOL efforts. A light weight multipath means toward anti-torque would seem very desirable for conventional combat helicopters.
 

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