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Jet fighter projects of 1946

hesham

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Hi,

Lippisch P.12 in two configurations.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%201180.html
 

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lark

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Lippisch called this design a Triebflügel since a large
part of the blended wing fuselage was a ramjet.
(not to confuse with the Focke-Wulf Triebflügel.)

Waffen Arsenal Band 102 Podzun-Pallas Verlag.Friedberg.
More info also on www.nurflügel.com
 

Flitzer

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Hi all.
I have a couple of questions re: the Messerschmitt P1110/l and /ll.

Which one is which?
Different sources seem to mix them up.
Some state the design with the butterfly tail and annular intake is the 1, and the design with the more conventional swept tail and fuselage side intakes as the ll, while others are completely vica versa.

Also is it me or does the Saab Lansen look like a double sized Me P1110 (the conventional tail version)?

Plus if anything is classed as Luft 46, it must have been designed, scribbled or penned before '46 or before the end of WW2. Just a thought.

Cheers
Peter ;D
 

lark

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About the P.12...

This designation was used twice by A.Lippisch.The first time when he worked
with Messerschmitt were the P.12 became a BMW jetpowered fighter/fast bomber project.
After Lippisch moved to LFA in Wien he used the P.12 again. This time for his
ramjet powered nurflügel/delta project.
 

Jemiba

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"About the P.12..."

Another drawing with a planview from Rudolf Storck "Flying Wings" :
 

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Antonio

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Which one is which?
P.1110/I: butterfly tail and annular intake

P.1110/II: conventional swept tail and fuselage side intakes

Source: Les Avions Messerschmitt. Mini Docavia 22. Pierre Gaillard. Ed Larivière.

Also is it me or does the Saab Lansen look like a double sized Me P1110 (the conventional tail version)?
I agree :)
 

Flitzer

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Thanks pometablava.

I tend to agree.

In Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945 by Walter Schick, Ingolf Meyer, Elke Weal, and John Weal
it states the same.

Many thanks
Peter ;D
 

Antonio

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Peter,

I've found the contradiction at "Die Deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945" (Heinz J. Nowarra). However it seems that P.1110/I and P.1110/II is not the "official" reference to that projects. I have other books at home where P.1110 design iterations are described with their design date. With my sources I can identify about 6 different versions. Please give me a couple of days to collect more data and I'll post it here.

Regards,

Antonio
 

Flitzer

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Many thanks Antonio
Wow...6 different versions?

Looks like I'll be busy doing profiles.

Cheers
Peter
 

Antonio

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More about the Messerschmitt P1110:

Geheimprojekte der Lufwaffe. Jagdflugzeuge 1939-1945 ( Luftwaffe Secret Projects. Fighters...I have the original German edition from Motorbuch Verlag). The P1110 variants are described as:

12-January-1945 design: butterfly tail and annular intake

22-February-1945 design: conventional swept tail and fuselage side intakes

Jet Planes of the Third Reich. The Secret Projects. Volume I. Manfred Griehl.

Drawing XVIII/155 12-December-1944: conventional swept tail and fuselage side intakes. That design it is not the same as 22-February-1945

Drawing XVIII/170 12-January-1945: butterfly tail and annular intake

Mr Griehl outlines the P 1110 evolution as:

12-12-1944
12-01-1945
02-02-1945 (
Me P 1110 TL-Jäger mit Tragflügel A wich had wing roots not unlike those of the F-18 Hornet
; F-18A I understand)
12-02-1945 P 1110 Ente
16-03-1945 A special Zerstörer version, the P 1110 W with 1xMK 214A 50 mm cannon placed in the nose.

Tomorrow I'll post more details from:

Messerchmitt Geheimprojekte. W, Radinger/W. Schick. Aviatic Verlag. There is an English edition of this book too.
 

Flitzer

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Many many thanks Antonio.

for your great help.

Peter
 

Flitzer

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Hi All.

Now I am well in to doing a couple of profiles for the MeP1110 I need a little help in clarifying a couple of points please.

I read that the second design (conventional tail) was to use wooden wings, there fore am I correct in assuming the butterfly tail version would have had wings of all metal construction?

If its correct that the conventional tail version would have had wooden wings, does this mean a wooden frame with a metal skin or all wood with wooden skin similar to the He 162?

I'm looking for what would have been the most likely or probable outcome.

Many many thanks.

Peter ;D
 

Flitzer

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Hi again
Work in progress on the two Me1110 s.

Cheers and thanks

Peter
;D
 

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Flitzer

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Thanks Zizi.

And here's one I did earlier.
Digicam pics of a model I made then played around in Photoshop.

Cheers
Peter
;D
 

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Antonio

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Amazing, I love that drawings Peter.

I'm sorry for that delay in finishing my post about the P.1110 but I have been very busy the last week and I'll have no spare time until next week. :'(

Antonio
 

Flitzer

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Hi Antonio
no problem.
Spare time?....What is that? ;)

After looking at the 3-views you kindly sent me, I think I need to re-work the intakes on the ll. They should have distinct curve.


Many thanks
Peter ;D
 

Flitzer

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Hi again
re-done the intake.
Hope it looks more like it.
Cheers
Peter
 

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lark

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Maybe this could be useful.

Light fighter Messerschmitt P-1110 - span: 8,20m
lenght:9,25m
empty weight:1250kg
max.weight 4500kg
max speed estimated:100km/h
version P-1110-II - 'V' tailplane 85° .canard foreplane.annular air intake
span:6,60m
lenght:9,50m
max weight:4100kg

source:Messerschmitt-Flugzeuge. Serie:Werks-Chroniken.Luftfahrt-Verlag Walter Zuerl.
Steinebach am Wörthsee
 

lark

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for the P-1110 : max speed must be 1000km/h instead.. Sorry.
 

Flitzer

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Many many thanks Lark and Artie Bob.
Yes; hugely helpful. A bit of bedtime reading for me tonight.

Really appreciate all your help.

Delighted
Peter ;D
 

hesham

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Hi,

a hypothetical fighter.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1946/1946%20-%201567.html
 

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hesham

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Hi,

I don't know if this Lippisch supersonic flying wing aircraft was
designed after or before 1945.
http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Lippisch_Nurflugels/lippisch_nurflugels.html
 

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XP67_Moonbat

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Check this baby out! My personal favorite out of all the "Napkin-waffe'46" designs.

http://www.gumnut.net/sapma/gallery/sbpages/p1111.htm
 

Flitzer

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Me P1111 by PM

....and inexpensive too!

Cheers
Peter
 

hesham

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Thank you my dear Justo,

and what was this ?.
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ufonazi.html
 

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XP67_Moonbat

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Gracias Justo,

:D I always loved this design. I hate to be dramatic, but I think it's hot. However, I do have to wonder if it had any actual influence at all over the design of the F4D Skyray. Another hot design I've always liked too, BTW.

Moonbat
 

Artie Bob

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Dear Moonbat,

If you are refering to the P.1111 as regards the "Ford" look again. Even at the superficial level, about the only commonality between the two designs is they are jet aircraft with tricycle landing gear. Ed Heinemann's naval combat designs generally owed little to competitors, either in the USA or without. About the only really serious "copying" of designs was done in the USSR, i.e. Tu-4, Tu-144 "Concordski ", etc. Almost certainly some concepts and technology made it's way into USA designs, but the myth of some back of the napkin level Reichdreams being the actual basis for any major USA design is really just that.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob
 

Jschmus

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Moonbat,

I found the following quoted on Greg Goebel's Air Vectors article on the F4D.

After the surrender of Germany in May 1945, two Douglas company aerodynamicists, Gene Root and A.M.O. "Amo" Smith, went to Paris to assess aerodynamic data captured from the Germans. The two obtained quite a haul of material, including wind-tunnel test data performed on models of tailless aircraft designed by Dr. Alexander Lippisch. Lippisch had actually developed a production tailless combat aircraft, the Messerschmitt Me-163 rocket fighter, and had many other ideas for tailless aircraft, particularly with delta wings. Root and Smith also had an opportunity to chat with Dr. Lippisch, who was then in Allied custody in Paris.
I think that's as close as they came to "copying" any German work.

The whole write-up can be found here:

http://www.vectorsite.net/avskyray.html
 

XP67_Moonbat

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Well those boys took some good notes because the end-product of their work, the Skyray, was a good design. Very easy on my eyes, too. Just like the P-1111.

What can I say? I've always had a fondness for tailless and flying wing designs.

Moonbat
 
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