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Japanese next generation fighter study (aka i3, F-3)

bouninng

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"我が国の防衛と予算(案)-令和2年度予算の概要-" P14

this blog is collecting F-3's imformation
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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"我が国の防衛と予算(案)-令和2年度予算の概要-" P14

this blog is collecting F-3's imformation
Image from PDF is the same one already posted.
 

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rooster

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That's a pretty paper airplane and kind of how I envision a SH replacement.
 

TomcatViP

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Well, the apparent loss of a joint airframe might open some legroom for system design. Japan was looking for something more expensive than what UK public would have acknowledged. So, the early split should be seen as something potentially putting some grease in industry talks.
 

Blitzo

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Makes me wonder what if any of the backroom politicking for the F-3 may have looked like, considering the wrangling that happened behind the scenes for F-2.
 

Foo Fighter

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I may have posted this in the wrong thread earlier, "Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on".
 

kaiserd

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Japan's next-gen fighter to be built with US, not UK

If officially confirmed this is highly-predictable; the idea that Japan would actually opt for joint development with the UK always had more than a touch of fantasy to it (choice of US inevitable and logical).

And apparent hopes still being expressed by some contributors that anything more than extremely marginal UK involvement may still be possible is likely equally fantastical (in theory maybe some work to the US-based parts of BAE systems?).
 

red admiral

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Its pretty obvious there are three camps in Japan currently: Japanese-only, US partner, and UK partner. The different news stories as to what option is preferred simply come from whichever camp is doing the leaking. Decision is end of the year.

That being said I reckon Japan-UK partnership is just too hard to make work. Having some US companies as subcontractors for particular systems that Japan doesn't have the expertise for seems much more likely.
 

Hood

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It never seemed likely that Japan would escape from US cooperation, it would be too difficult for numerous reasons. Though what clean sheet design could emerge remains to be seen, I can't see Boeing or LM getting behind a Japanese-developed airframe and potential F-35 rival. Maybe a hotted up F-35 seems the most likely choice?
They do seem quite interested in Meteor AAM developments though and hopefully that will continue.
 

red admiral

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Difficult to see it being a rival to F-35 for exports. Reliance on the US means lots of ITAR systems and an effective export ban. And it'll be ridiculously expensive for the few numbers the Japanese will build.
 

helmutkohl

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I may have posted this in the wrong thread earlier, "Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on".
they already considered this and it was too expensive. Its cheaper just to start from the ground up.
 

Hood

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Difficult to see it being a rival to F-35 for exports. Reliance on the US means lots of ITAR systems and an effective export ban. And it'll be ridiculously expensive for the few numbers the Japanese will build.
The American aviation industry never supports any foreign project that could compete with its own products in any shape or form. I can't think of any project since the 1960s they have sponsored in such a way. The usual deal is, here is plane X, either buy it or build it under licence and we might let you tinker with some bits of it.
 

Foo Fighter

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I may have posted this in the wrong thread earlier, "Is it a realistic idea to adapt the F-22 airframe to the F-35 systems and modern engines with the radar absorbing coatings etc to produce a sidekick aircraft with complementary abilities? Obviously they have different roles and capabilities so could the hybrid be a useful addition to the fleet instead of modernising 4th gen aircraft while hoping they can do the job? I know this is as old as the hills but with all the talk of F-15X and F-16 that I thought I would see if I could get a single answer or just differentiated opinion. Rock on".
they already considered this and it was too expensive. Its cheaper just to start from the ground up.
Considering the balloon that has been F-35 development costs and perhaps not.
 

TomcatViP

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The F-3 is intended to be an F-35 with more range. Hence it does not compete with any US design given that their industry is already galoping for a next generation fighter.
In term of cost, the infinite advantages of having thousands of airframe in service around the world would make dubious they will compete anywhere on any market. Even a stretched, enlarged 35 will cost less.

The opportunity for the US industry is to open a third stream of advanced aerospace design. The opportunity for the UK is similar (systems).

Europeans might feel like they have somethings to loose with the design toward some of their now traditional customers (ME) if heads are not cool enough. But I sincerely doubt that budget realities and strategic views once tamed with reality will lead them to make the FCAS an as big airframe, sorting in effect the market demand around a clear divider: cost and the need for range.
 

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FighterJock

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Hope Japan chooses both option's for their future fighter program, it is the only way forward for the future fighter program.
 

kaiserd

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Or most likely Japan keeping the UK “option” open as leverage as they try to negotiate as much as possible from the US who they almost certainly will go with for more or less inescapable reasons.
 
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Grey Havoc

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Japan wants to develop a stealth fighter domestically, rejecting designs from Lockheed Martin Corp and Boeing Co in the United States and Britain’s BAE Systems PLC, three sources with knowledge of the programme told Reuters.

That would put Japan’s leading defence contractor, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, in the lead for a military contract worth more than $40 billion. The company has not submitted a design for the next-generation fighter, but developed Japan’s stealth fighter technology demonstrator, the X-2, in 2016.

“Japan’s stealth designs have performed well in tests so far,” said one of the sources, who has knowledge of discussion about the new proposed plane, referred to as the F-3 or F-X.

A spokesman for Mitsubishi Heavy said the company would work with the government on whatever policy it decided to follow.

Proposals from Lockheed, Boeing and BAE “were judged not to have met our needs,” said an official at the Japanese defence ministry’s Acquisition, Technology & Logistics Agency (ATLA).


 

Grey Havoc

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I suspect that certain interests in Washington are trying to avoid being frozen out.
 

stealthflanker

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Would be nice to export them. i guess more "medium" stealth fighter in the market would be good. This however will put it in competition against F-35 and J-31's Something which i guess both US and China wont want to see.
 

TomcatViP

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One day there will be an Asian market for such product. It depends a lot of the context b/w China and the US but a market might emerge for an alternative high-end product not branded from any side... Something like a super Flanker that keep its promise in term of Range, reliability and Stealth.
 

Deltafan

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Well, with partner, without partner, with Partner again...

I Don't know if it's because of Japanese government or mistakes of journalists, but it's not easy to follow...

Edit : and no more Partner again… :rolleyes:

 
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red admiral

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I Don't know if it's because of Japanese government or mistakes of journalists, but it's not easy to follow...
Journalists. The Japanese MOD position of those running the project has always been consistent.
 

Hood

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Well the Kawasaki P-1 has failed so far on the export market, even with the changed position on fitting Western rather than Japanese avionics.
The truth is Japanese manufacturers have no form when it comes to exports, they are unknowns with little pedigree beyond the shores of Japan - in fact even before 1941 Japan was not known as an aircraft exporter.
Against the likes of Lockheed, Boeing, Dassault or even BAE Systems, they have a long mountain to climb.

In the same vein much has been written about China, but they face the same sales resistance. Most Asian nations who can afford it seem to go for home-grown designs and those who can't afford it pay Moscow in sacks of millet or bales of cotton.
 

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some more details from yesterday that explains why they dropped the British


apparently collaboration with the British was the lead idea with the Japanese
that all went downhill after they disagreed with the way the Brits wanted to manage it, involving profits, partnerships and who will lead

the Japanese wanted to lead the design. they felt they had the technologies already
they rejected the Lockheed proposal for a F-35 variant

but instead they want a co-partner for a Japanese led design, so they now currently have a group that includes all the major US companies
Lockheed, Boeing, etc
 

helmutkohl

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In the same vein much has been written about China, but they face the same sales resistance. Most Asian nations who can afford it seem to go for home-grown designs and those who can't afford it pay Moscow in sacks of millet or bales of cotton.
Korea has done relatively well in both the military export market
 

helmutkohl

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nothing major besides talks now going to 3 US companies. Northrop, Boeing and Lockmart.
no idea if its consultation with all 3, or if it will be some kind of competition and one partner will be chosen.

I personally hope it would be Boeing or Northrop just so we can see a more unique design since everyone and their pet dog is making something F-22 looking these days.
 
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