Japanese next generation fighter study (aka i3, F-3)

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
168
Reaction score
313
That's gonna be challenging goal, especially if they want 73 cm diameter to be retained from EJ-200.
No, the inlet diameter is going to be 98cm. They apparently have already achieved the thrust figures both on sea level and high altitude. Obviously there's more than just thrust to consider when developing an engine so it's still a very long way to go.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
4,733
Reaction score
4,203
IMOHO, they are and have already been talking only about the manufacturing of components that would be more affordable or reliable as sourced from the UK industry.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
im wondering if they can go beyond just sharing possibly the engines, and share the airframe as well given somewhat similar geographies

Japanese requirements, IRC, is for a long ranged air superiority aircraft with the capability to carry AShMs and other kinds of long range stand off munitions.

what do the Brits want from their Tempest?
 

Blitzo

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
419
Reaction score
120
im wondering if they can go beyond just sharing possibly the engines, and share the airframe as well given somewhat similar geographies

Japanese requirements, IRC, is for a long ranged air superiority aircraft with the capability to carry AShMs and other kinds of long range stand off munitions.

what do the Brits want from their Tempest?

Sharing some subsystems or some components of subsystems is one thing, but sharing an airframe as well -- would require not only much more national level coordination of their respective industries and worksharing, but also for each military to accept the airframe's performance as acceptable.

Given the point of F-3 AIUI is for Japan to be able to develop a fighter as independently as possible, and to keep as much of its aerospace industry working as possible, I don't see significant overlap with the UK Tempest as plausible... unless one side is willing to bend over backwards to accommodate the other's mission requirements and industry demands.

I could see weapons developed from a joint program like an AAM or something, and sharing of certain components that goes into the respective engines of each aircraft, and maybe common technologies underpinning avionics that are spun off into their own different independent products. But I think it's too late in the game, for what would essentially be a common aircraft to be developed for the UK and Japan.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
6,947
Reaction score
5,824
In a sense, South Korea is presently achieving (with KF-21) what Japan had struggled to achieve since the T-2 / F-2.
Why can't Japan pull a KF-21 ?
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
In a sense, South Korea is presently achieving (with KF-21) what Japan had struggled to achieve since the T-2 / F-2.
Why can't Japan pull a KF-21 ?

i don't get it?
what is Japan supposed to achieve in your eyes?

They've built a 4th gen in the F-2 (granted they could not push their original design and had to use an F-16 based one).
They've built one of the world's first AESA radar
They've built fighter jet engines as well as all kinds of missiles
and they built the X-2 stealthy demonstrator.

All indicators show that they're trying to skip the 5th gen and go to "6th", whatever that is.
 

Bhurki

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
306
Reaction score
292
In a sense, South Korea is presently achieving (with KF-21) what Japan had struggled to achieve since the T-2 / F-2.
Why can't Japan pull a KF-21 ?

i don't get it?
what is Japan supposed to achieve in your eyes?

They've built a 4th gen in the F-2 (granted they could not push their original design and had to use an F-16 based one).
They've built one of the world's first AESA radar
They've built fighter jet engines as well as all kinds of missiles
and they built the X-2 stealthy demonstrator.

All indicators show that they're trying to skip the 5th gen and go to "6th", whatever that is.
Whats even more impressive is that they were able to develop an MPA (P-1) and C-2 cargo aircraft for a cost of just about $3B.
And also being able to develop the XF9 turbofan with very little help from 'others'.
Japanese defense industry is no slouch.
 

Archibald

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2006
Messages
6,947
Reaction score
5,824
I probably heard too many bad things about the F-2 being "a larger merely improved F-16". Heck, even Richard Aboulafia Teal group said that. Which doesn't mean they are right.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
I probably heard too many bad things about the F-2 being "a larger merely improved F-16". Heck, even Richard Aboulafia Teal group said that. Which doesn't mean they are right.

well the problem with the F-2 is that its heavier, but has more or less the same thrust as the F-16.

its development was incredibly political

From the US perspective
they said Japan needed to do more to counter the Soviet threat
and the Japanese building their own original idea wouldn't be good, as they thought it would be an expensive, inferior, and low production rate aircraft. So they pushed them to basically Japanize an existing US design

From the Japanese perspective
what they wanted was a modern follow on from the F-1 that was twin engined to do some AshM missions like the F-1 did.
their idea was some kind of aircraft that looked like an F-18 but a delta-canard.

They felt that the US was pressuring them in order to have more aircraft to stand up to the Soviets
but it couldn't be their own domestic idea. must be an American one because the Americans were afraid of the Japanese surpassing them in combat aircraft as well.

Keep in mind this was the 1980s, when a lot of Americans feared Japan's economic might and technological advances.

This left a strong sour taste in Japan when it comes to collaborating with the US on certain major defense issues.

Now in regards to the KF-21.. I believe what Japan really wanted was the F-22. It seems they really believed the US would allow it for export, but that never happened. By the time it was obvious, it was already the mid 2000s (2010s?).
Probably too late to make a 5th gen from scratch at this point, and they needed to start thinking of the 6th generation as anything they would do would end up flying in the late 2020s or 2030s anyways.
a KF-21 design might be too small and not what Japan wants, which is something larger.
 

Ares

Man from Far East
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
33
Reaction score
83
Can somebody summarize the content behind the paywall?

A spokesperson from the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) told Janes that the proposed project with Japan is linked to the UK government's Future Combat Air System (FCAS), of which the Tempest future fighter is the crucial component. In late 2020 the UK agreed to progress FCAS through a trilateral memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Italy and Sweden.

“Working with international allies is central to our strategy for a Future Combat Air System, which will keep us safe from intensifying threats for the rest of the century,” said the MoD spokesperson. “As well as our partnership with Sweden and Italy, we are exploring opportunities on the development of subsystems with Japan.”
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
Can somebody summarize the content behind the paywall?

A spokesperson from the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) told Janes that the proposed project with Japan is linked to the UK government's Future Combat Air System (FCAS), of which the Tempest future fighter is the crucial component. In late 2020 the UK agreed to progress FCAS through a trilateral memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Italy and Sweden.

“Working with international allies is central to our strategy for a Future Combat Air System, which will keep us safe from intensifying threats for the rest of the century,” said the MoD spokesperson. “As well as our partnership with Sweden and Italy, we are exploring opportunities on the development of subsystems with Japan.”
here you go..
A spokesperson from the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) told Janes that the proposed project with Japan is linked to the UK government's Future Combat Air System (FCAS), of which the Tempest future fighter is the crucial component. In late 2020 the UK agreed to progress FCAS through a trilateral memorandum of understanding (MoU) with Italy and Sweden.


“Working with international allies is central to our strategy for a Future Combat Air System, which will keep us safe from intensifying threats for the rest of the century,” said the MoD spokesperson. “As well as our partnership with Sweden and Italy, we are exploring opportunities on the development of subsystems with Japan.”


Rolls-Royce told Janes that its potential collaboration with IHI Corporation would be founded on the UK firm's strong industrial ties in the Asian country.


Rolls-Royce says on its website that nearly 20% of the components and modules in its Trent family of commercial aerospace engines are built in Japan. Rolls-Royce engines power aircraft across all branches of the Japan Self-Defense Forces (JSDF), according to the website.


“Working with Japan to develop the technologies and capabilities needed for a next-generation fighter to replace the F-2 offers an exciting opportunity to bring together some of the best combat air capabilities in the world,” said a Rolls-Royce spokesperson.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
nothing terribly new but:


summary: Mitsubishi will work with Lockheed Martin on the stealth features for the new aircraft while IHI will work on the engines with Rolls Royce. The goal with RR is to reduce cost and improve performance.
the JSDF plans to standardize their fleet to 3 combat aircraft: the F-35, a modernized F-15, and this new aircraft (note no F-2, theyve seemed to be dissatisfied with it since day 1).
Final cost of development to exceed 1 trillion yen (over 9 billion USD)

20210719-OYT1I50065-1.jpg


and a whatif from Zephyr164. You may have noticed his works on his depictions of the Su-75 in the Checkmate thread
View: https://twitter.com/Zephyr164/status/1420022632909508611/photo/1
 

muttbutt

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
291
Reaction score
170
Complementary loyal wingman/UCAV work gets the go ahead, translated from Japanese.

Unmanned aerial vehicle supports next fighter aircraft Autonomous flight with AI, acceleration of examination-Ministry of Defense​


August 11, 2021 17:20

[Illustration] Operation image of unmanned aerial vehicle
[Illustration] Operation image of unmanned aerial vehicle



On the 11th, the Ministry of Defense decided to develop an unmanned aerial vehicle to support the next fighter, which will be the successor to the Japan Air Self-Defense Force F2 fighter. Include related expenses in the 2022 budget request, and accelerate the study for the realization of autonomous flight technology for unmanned aerial vehicles by artificial intelligence (AI). Like the next fighter, it aims to start operation around 1935.

Operation methods for support include (1) early detection of enemy fighters and missiles (2) missile launch (3) electronic attack while flying in an airspace away from the next fighter, and enemy missiles. It is expected to become a "decoy" for. Unmanned aerial vehicles have the advantage of being easy to fly in dangerous airspace because there is no human damage even if they are shot down.
 

Ares

Man from Far East
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
33
Reaction score
83
Japan MOD plans to invest more than ¥100 billion($10 million) for the full-scale design of F-X in the 2022 budget.

 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
100 billion Yen is ~1 billion dollar ;)
yep. the easiest way to convert yens to dollars is to simply delete the last two digits.
although these days 100 billion yen is closer to 910 million.

I think often the confusion is the way Japanese (and Chinese and Korean) categorize their number groupings
100 billon yen is 1000億
basically 1 thousand x 1 hundred million
 

Sundog

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,938
Reaction score
494
the JSDF plans to standardize their fleet to 3 combat aircraft: the F-35, a modernized F-15, and this new aircraft (note no F-2, theyve seemed to be dissatisfied with it since day 1).

The F-35 is replacing the F-2 in the strike role, and the F-3 is going to be the new top end fighter. The F-15s will still be useful for air defense. It seems to me the F-2s were mainly used for strike, so having the F-35s negates any reason to keep them.
 

Colonial-Marine

Fighting the UAV mafia.
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
770
Reaction score
129
Seems a bit of a waste. I know the F-2 is quite expensive due to a variety of reasons but it should be one of the more capable F-16 derivatives out there. I'm sure it's quite agile too with that larger wing.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
the JSDF plans to standardize their fleet to 3 combat aircraft: the F-35, a modernized F-15, and this new aircraft (note no F-2, theyve seemed to be dissatisfied with it since day 1).

The F-35 is replacing the F-2 in the strike role, and the F-3 is going to be the new top end fighter. The F-15s will still be useful for air defense. It seems to me the F-2s were mainly used for strike, so having the F-35s negates any reason to keep them.

Indeed, the F-2s are primarily used for maritime strike. The requirement was for an aircraft to carry up to 4 AShMs

such as these 4 ASM2s..
although in practice it tended to be 2.

i wonder how many the F-35 can carry?

JASDF_ASM-2_Dummy.JPG
 

stealthflanker

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
963
Reaction score
851
Will Japanese's F-35's be capable of carrying the new ASM-3 ? Seems unlikely to me F-35 will replace F-2 without such capability.

The lineup here would look like F-3 will replace F-2, while F-35 and F-15 will be in their own roles decided by the Japanese.
------

Other than that i like F-2. it's just that it deviates from what it originally intended and there arent many built in the first place. Had Japan went on producing some 100-200 articles or more. It would compare favorably in price with other aircrafts.
 

helmutkohl

ACCESS: Top Secret
Staff member
Senior Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
900
Reaction score
1,554
Will Japanese's F-35's be capable of carrying the new ASM-3 ? Seems unlikely to me F-35 will replace F-2 without such capability.

The lineup here would look like F-3 will replace F-2, while F-35 and F-15 will be in their own roles decided by the Japanese.
------

Other than that i like F-2. it's just that it deviates from what it originally intended and there arent many built in the first place. Had Japan went on producing some 100-200 articles or more. It would compare favorably in price with other aircrafts.
good question.
I dont know..
but I do know Japan made a budget for the JSM, which I assume can be carries internally
 

Ares

Man from Far East
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
33
Reaction score
83
Will Japanese's F-35's be capable of carrying the new ASM-3 ? Seems unlikely to me F-35 will replace F-2 without such capability.

The lineup here would look like F-3 will replace F-2, while F-35 and F-15 will be in their own roles decided by the Japanese.
------

Other than that i like F-2. it's just that it deviates from what it originally intended and there arent many built in the first place. Had Japan went on producing some 100-200 articles or more. It would compare favorably in price with other aircrafts.
good question.
I dont know..
but I do know Japan made a budget for the JSM, which I assume can be carries internally
It is highly unlikely that the United States will allow Japanese weapons to be integrated into the F-35 since Japan is not the partner in the JSF program.

And that's the reason for the decision to jointly develop air-to-air missiles with the UK.
 

Maro.Kyo

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
168
Reaction score
313
The F-35 is replacing the F-2 in the strike role, and the F-3 is going to be the new top end fighter. The F-15s will still be useful for air defense. It seems to me the F-2s were mainly used for strike, so having the F-35s negates any reason to keep them.
Not that simple. F-3 would carry over the maritime strike role of the F-2 which was one of its most important mission (thus the name support fighter). Actually, the ASM-3 integration to the F-2 has been suspended due to the integration problem with the current MC (so the F-2 needs a new MC for it to use ASM-3 and the ordeal is a bit complicated) and with F-3 in mind, has since then been kept on hold regarding its fielding and is going through additional upgrade to extend range and improve other features. ASM-3A is the result of this process.
 

Kota

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Aug 15, 2021
Messages
1
Reaction score
2
The F-35 is replacing the F-2 in the strike role, and the F-3 is going to be the new top end fighter. The F-15s will still be useful for air defense. It seems to me the F-2s were mainly used for strike, so having the F-35s negates any reason to keep them.
Not that simple. F-3 would carry over the maritime strike role of the F-2 which was one of its most important mission (thus the name support fighter). Actually, the ASM-3 integration to the F-2 has been suspended due to the integration problem with the current MC (so the F-2 needs a new MC for it to use ASM-3 and the ordeal is a bit complicated) and with F-3 in mind, has since then been kept on hold regarding its fielding and is going through additional upgrade to extend range and improve other features. ASM-3A is the result of this process.
Not even as simple as this. Japan basically wants their entire fighter fleet to have Anti-shipping capabilities to some capacity.

The F-3 will use the ASM-3 although we don't entirely know if that will be internal or external, how many could fit on wing pylons, etc.

In contrast to the ASM-3, Japan is developing an air launched version of the Type 12 or more accurately the extended range Type 17 SSM-2 as a slower, but much longer range stand-off weapon. The Type 17 already doubled the range of the Type 12, so we can only assume the range benefits of an air launched version.
Development of the Type-12 surface-to-ship missile (modified) and a new air-to-ship missile for patrol aircraft (¥11.5 billion) Develop the Type-12 surface-to-ship missile (modified) with upgraded functions and performance, including a longer range compared with existing missiles, and a new air-to-ship missile for patrol aircraft in order to enhance the capability to counter enemy surface vessels, etc. (standardization based on a new ship-to-ship missile (under development) ) https://www.mod.go.jp/en/d_act/d_budget/pdf/290328.pdf
We've already seen the P-1 with x4 regular Type 12's mounted and the interesting thing to note is the P-1 has 8 wing pylons.
thediplomat-2020-02-28-2.png

FMBnJA_iCyBYptm3WYfbuUtAFthyRQQNCEvJBocHYIeTxKgO3YVE_93a1CJhK0hbqwY9YlweU1pq_CDAQpvSgTs


Also Japan scrapped the AGM-158C from the F-15JSI because of integration costs and is looking for an in house alternative and the "XASM-4" as I will call it, fits the bill.

To me it seems like the F-3's focus will be on using it's stealth to penetrate enemy air defense networks and deploying the shorter range, but much faster ASM-3A. Meanwhile non-stealth aircraft with no weapons bay size restrictions (yes the Type 17 at 6.5m is even bigger than the ASM-3) like the P-1 and F-15JSI will carry the "XASM-4" as a saturation standoff weapon outside of the enemy's reach.
hluHsZM.png


To me it seems like in the absence of the F-2, Japan's anti-shipping operations only get better with this combo they are planning and in all honesty I don't see the F-35 needing to pick up any slack.
 

Similar threads

Top