• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

Italian Navy DDX

Moose

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
342
The Italian Navy is planning a pair of 10,000 ton Destroyers, known for the time being as DDX.
Current plans envisage vessels that are 24 meters wide with a 9-meter draft and more than 300 crew, while offering a top speed of over 30 knots using the CODOGAL (COmbined Diesel Or Gas And eLectric) propulsion system, De Carolis said. The system allows the use of either gas or diesel turbines, plus electric propulsion for lower speeds.
“The U.S. and Russia still operate cruisers, but most other navies today rely on destroyers for fighting power. They must cover anti-air, anti-ship and anti-submarine operations with a focus on integrated air and missile defense, including ballistic missile defense.”

The most “critical task” for destroyers, he added, is protecting carrier battle groups and playing the typical “shotgun role” for carriers. Examples he gave included the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War when the Italian vessel ITS Audace was part of the escort to the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, and during Operation Enduring Freedom in 2002, when the ITS Durand de la Penne escorted the U.S. Navy carriers John C. Stennis and John F. Kennedy.
These would be the largest surface combatants built in Western Europe since the 40s.
 

TomS

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
4,492
Reaction score
1,529
The Italian Navy is planning a pair of 10,000 ton Destroyers, known for the time being as DDX.
These would be the largest surface combatants built in Western Europe since the 40s.
The concept design seems shockingly under-armed for its size (64 VLS plus 8 Otomat). The similar-sized KDX-III have twice the VLS cells and SSMs, for example.
 

Moose

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
342
Armament-wise they appear to replicate the Horizons, with 20 years worth improvement in technology. The fixed-face radar and command facilities would definitely add on the tonnage, but it is curious they're looking at four thousand or so extra tons for DDX. Could be there's more under the skin, Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent, or maybe they're taking the German approach of "build the biggest hull we can now and hope to tack on more missiles in a future budget."
 

TomS

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
4,492
Reaction score
1,529
Armament-wise they appear to replicate the Horizons, with 20 years worth improvement in technology.

A bit better than the Horizons -- the article says 48 cells but the render shows 64. So that's a 33% increase, on a nearly 50% increase in displacement. I guess better radar could eat up some of that, but it seems disproportionate.

Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent,

Maybe they've upped their game; my understanding was that Italian ships historically tended to be fairly tight accomodation-wise. For one datapoint, I looked at a series of "Ship Characteristics" reports that Messrs Kehoe, Brower, and Meier wrote on various NATO frigates in Naval Engineers Journal around 1979-1981. The Maestrale class was their first subject, and they describe it as having overall habitability space below the NATO average, and "generally comparable to United States practice in the mid-1960s." The only ships that seem to have been worse in their survey were the Type 42s, which they called out as being exceptionally cramped. The French, Dutch, and Germans were well above the average.
 

Moose

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 4, 2010
Messages
1,371
Reaction score
342
I should have said "recent Italian crew accommodations." Their partnership with the French from the 90s on might have helped bring them up above par.
 

TomS

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
4,492
Reaction score
1,529
I should have said "recent Italian crew accommodations." Their partnership with the French from the 90s on might have helped bring them up above par.

That makes sense. I do remember the Horizons being considered a massive improvement.
 

JohnR

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
790
Reaction score
222
Could be there's more under the skin, Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent, or maybe they're taking the German approach of "build the biggest hull we can now and hope to tack on more missiles in a future budget."
I agree with that concept although I didn't think the Germans were proponents of it K130 is rather small, although as I understand it they are replacing the FAC there a step up. I think the engine power could be a governing factor, what is the planned power plant for the DDX, I presume they are to have two MT30s; which seems logical as there new frigate is using one, so a potential 100,000hp does seem to 'require' a large hull.
 

TomS

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
4,492
Reaction score
1,529
Could be there's more under the skin, Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent, or maybe they're taking the German approach of "build the biggest hull we can now and hope to tack on more missiles in a future budget."
I agree with that concept although I didn't think the Germans were proponents of it K130 is rather small, although as I understand it they are replacing the FAC there a step up. I think the engine power could be a governing factor, what is the planned power plant for the DDX, I presume they are to have two MT30s; which seems logical as there new frigate is using one, so a potential 100,000hp does seem to 'require' a large hull.

Which Italian frigates have MT30? The FREMM have LM2500 G4+.

The German ships Moose is referring to are presumably the F125s, which seem way too large for their equipment as well.
 

1635yankee

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Aug 18, 2020
Messages
45
Reaction score
40
The Italian Navy is planning a pair of 10,000 ton Destroyers, known for the time being as DDX.
Current plans envisage vessels that are 24 meters wide with a 9-meter draft and more than 300 crew, while offering a top speed of over 30 knots using the CODOGAL (COmbined Diesel Or Gas And eLectric) propulsion system, De Carolis said. The system allows the use of either gas or diesel turbines, plus electric propulsion for lower speeds.
“The U.S. and Russia still operate cruisers, but most other navies today rely on destroyers for fighting power. They must cover anti-air, anti-ship and anti-submarine operations with a focus on integrated air and missile defense, including ballistic missile defense.”

The most “critical task” for destroyers, he added, is protecting carrier battle groups and playing the typical “shotgun role” for carriers. Examples he gave included the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War when the Italian vessel ITS Audace was part of the escort to the U.S. Navy aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt, and during Operation Enduring Freedom in 2002, when the ITS Durand de la Penne escorted the U.S. Navy carriers John C. Stennis and John F. Kennedy.
These would be the largest surface combatants built in Western Europe since the 40s.

Except for carriers.
 

JohnR

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
790
Reaction score
222
Could be there's more under the skin, Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent, or maybe they're taking the German approach of "build the biggest hull we can now and hope to tack on more missiles in a future budget."
I agree with that concept although I didn't think the Germans were proponents of it K130 is rather small, although as I understand it they are replacing the FAC there a step up. I think the engine power could be a governing factor, what is the planned power plant for the DDX, I presume they are to have two MT30s; which seems logical as there new frigate is using one, so a potential 100,000hp does seem to 'require' a large hull.

Which Italian frigates have MT30? The FREMM have LM2500 G4+.

The German ships Moose is referring to are presumably the F125s, which seem way too large for their equipment as well.
I have to apologise I must have had some sort of a brain fart and managed to confuse the Italian PPA and the use of MT30 on the Trieste, Japanese 30DX and the S Korean Daegu Frigates.
 

TomS

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
4,492
Reaction score
1,529
Could be there's more under the skin, Italian crew accomodations are famously rather decent, or maybe they're taking the German approach of "build the biggest hull we can now and hope to tack on more missiles in a future budget."
I agree with that concept although I didn't think the Germans were proponents of it K130 is rather small, although as I understand it they are replacing the FAC there a step up. I think the engine power could be a governing factor, what is the planned power plant for the DDX, I presume they are to have two MT30s; which seems logical as there new frigate is using one, so a potential 100,000hp does seem to 'require' a large hull.

Which Italian frigates have MT30? The FREMM have LM2500 G4+.

The German ships Moose is referring to are presumably the F125s, which seem way too large for their equipment as well.
I have to apologise I must have had some sort of a brain fart and managed to confuse the Italian PPA and the use of MT30 on the Trieste, Japanese 30DX and the S Korean Daegu Frigates.

No worries. Easy enough to lose track. The MT30s on Trieste are an odd choice. Power for DDX could be either, I expect. LM2500G4+ and MT30 are within about 10% these days.
 

Similar threads

Top