Italian Cavour as conventional carrier

[archipeppe]

Interesting video of onbard operation (takeoff and landing) of Italian Blackshape two seat full composite materials trainer from Italian Carrier Count of Cavour during 2014 trials.

In that occasion the Blackshape BS 100 Prime becomed the first conventional aircraft to operate onboard an Italian carrier, since all other types both fixed wing (AV-8B+ and F-35B) and rotary wing (AB-412, NH-90 and EH-101) are STOVL or helicopter.

 

[ceccherini]

Once I've read that in the design phase MM briefly evaluated to adopt a CATOBAR or STOBAR configuration for Cavour with the intention of operate a navalized variant of the Typhoon figther. However I've never seen any drawing or read any specs.

 

[archipeppe]

I've heard the same about it, but no drawings at all.

My opinion that Cavour could or would become a true STOBAR (like the two Kunzetov, the two Chinese CVs and the Vikramanditya) but it is too small to be a CATOBAR. Furthermore the Cavour was designed from since with the F-35B in mind (a capability that she should reach during this 2020).

 

[ceccherini]

I've heard the same about it, but no drawings at all.

My opinion that Cavour could or would become a true STOBAR (like the two Kunzetov, the two Chinese CVs and the Vikramanditya) but it is too small to be a CATOBAR. Furthermore the Cavour was designed from since with the F-35B in mind (a capability that she should reach during this 2020).

Vikrant is basically the STOBAR variant of Cavour so it is plausible but maybe only with a something larger size. In the time frame of Cavour's planning (1995-2000) JSF's design was not even chosen and so it was very possible that the fighter would never see the light of the day. Probably MM was just working on a worst case scenario where no new generation stovl aircraft would be produced and the carrier would have to be adapted for conventional take off and landing.

 

[Tzoli]

Once I've read that in the design phase MM briefly evaluated to adopt a CATOBAR or STOBAR configuration for Cavour with the intention of operate a navalized variant of the Typhoon figther. However I've never seen any drawing or read any specs.

With this short take-off I could imagine a carrier supporting a squadron of these:

 

[airman]

Cavour is Stovl Carrier and will carry F-35B instead Av8 .

 

[ceccherini]

Once I've read that in the design phase MM briefly evaluated to adopt a CATOBAR or STOBAR configuration for Cavour with the intention of operate a navalized variant of the Typhoon figther. However I've never seen any drawing or read any specs.

With this short take-off I could imagine a carrier supporting a squadron of these:

Surely. Problem is you can't support the investment of developing a largely new aircraft just to get a dozen or two. The only viable option to have a naval Typhoon was to cooperate with the Royal Navy, herself engaged in similar considerations for the CVF and a partner in Typhoon program. Industrially Jsf was a better deal in technological return but overall a Sea Typhoon would probably be better for both Britain and Italy in commercial term.

 

[Tzoli]

Were there any carrier designs both for "home" use and for export which would utilise the EF-2000N Naval Typhoon?

 

[ceccherini]

Were there any carrier designs both for "home" use and for export which would utilise the EF-2000N Naval Typhoon?

Up to the year 2001 Typhoon was a candidate for the aircraft component to be employed on the CVF, the future Queen Elizabeth. After that EF-2000N has been discussed mainly in relation to the Indian carrier program but after the selection of Rafale by the Indian Air Force in 2012 I've never heard anything more about it.

 

[World B4]

Interesting video of onbard operation (takeoff and landing) of Italian Blackshape two seat full composite materials trainer from Italian Carrier Count of Cavour during 2014 trials.

In that occasion the Blackshape BS 100 Prime becomed the first conventional aircraft to operate onboard an Italian carrier, since all other types both fixed wing (AV-8B+ and F-35B) and rotary wing (AB-412, NH-90 and EH-101) are STOVL or helicopter.

Hope I don't come off as dumb for asking but... why did they do this?

 

[Pioneer]

Once I've read that in the design phase MM briefly evaluated to adopt a CATOBAR or STOBAR configuration for Cavour with the intention of operate a navalized variant of the Typhoon figther. However I've never seen any drawing or read any specs.

With this short take-off I could imagine a carrier supporting a squadron of these:

Yes spectacular, but one would assume the take-off performance would be somewhat lengthened with a factual fuel load, let alone an actual combat weapons load.

Regards
Pioneer

 

[ceccherini]

Interesting video of onbard operation (takeoff and landing) of Italian Blackshape two seat full composite materials trainer from Italian Carrier Count of Cavour during 2014 trials.

In that occasion the Blackshape BS 100 Prime becomed the first conventional aircraft to operate onboard an Italian carrier, since all other types both fixed wing (AV-8B+ and F-35B) and rotary wing (AB-412, NH-90 and EH-101) are STOVL or helicopter.

Hope I don't come off as dumb for asking but... why did they do this?

Marketing of the light aircraft

 

[archipeppe]

Marketing of the light aircraft

Yes, and from the other side the demonstration by Italian Navy to handle fixed wing conventional aircraft (even if light and small) from the flight deck of its carriers.
Maybe a lesson for cooperation with other Italian airforces (e.g. Esercito Italiano)?

 

[ceccherini]

Marketing of the light aircraft

Yes, and from the other side the demonstration by Italian Navy to handle fixed wing conventional aircraft (even if light and small) from the flight deck of its carriers.
Maybe a lesson for cooperation with other Italian airforces (e.g. Esercito Italiano)?

If I remember well this demonstration was carried out during a Cavour trip to Qatar in which the carrier was used as a showcase for national defence and aeronautic products.

 

[airman]

Unique conventional aircraft carriers were Aquila and Sparviero built and not completed during ww2 .

 

[archipeppe]

Unique conventional aircraft carriers were Aquila and Sparviero built and not completed during ww2 .

Obviously all we know it, this is not in topic with such thread that talks about Italian "modern" carriers (Garibaldi, Cavour and Trieste) and not the historical (and never commissioned) ones that are treated on other threads.

 

[Jemiba]

Indeed ! But an interesting experiment nevertheless !
(thread moved)

 

[archipeppe]

Indeed ! But an interesting experiment nevertheless !
(thread moved)

My dear Jemiba, thank you for the correct location of such thread.

Ciao
Giuseppe

 

[apparition13]

Does anyone have an idea of how much bigger the air wing could be if all the troop-carrying facilities were removed and replaced with hangar/air wing space? A wing of 20-24 seems small given the size of the ship. Wasp and America aren't much bigger (in terms of dimensions, not displacement), and have air wings of 35 or so with much more extensive amphibious assault facilities.

 

[helmutkohl]

Does anyone have an idea of how much bigger the air wing could be if all the troop-carrying facilities were removed and replaced with hangar/air wing space? A wing of 20-24 seems small given the size of the ship. Wasp and America aren't much bigger (in terms of dimensions, not displacement), and have air wings of 35 or so with much more extensive amphibious assault facilities.

Cavour is a standard helicopter/stovl carrier. You might be thinking of Trieste which has space for LHD operations that could possibly be converted like America

based on this graphic i counted
25 F-35s and 17 helicopters
maybe if we left 4 helicopters
then we could have space for 31 or 32 F-35s

another picture i found

as you can see, no more space for besides the deck and hangar

 

[TomS]

There's one thing odd about those drawings. They have three helos parked on the forward elevator in the hangar. I don't see any way for that to work -- if the elevator is up, you can't park aircraft under it, if it's down, there's quite a hole in the hangar roof.

 

[helmutkohl]

There's one thing odd about those drawings. They have three helos parked on the forward elevator in the hangar. I don't see any way for that to work -- if the elevator is up, you can't park aircraft under it, if it's down, there's quite a hole in the hangar roof.

its probably only for illustration purposes to show how many helicopters can fit on the elevator

 

[apparition13]

Cavour is a standard helicopter/stovl carrier. You might be thinking of Trieste which has space for LHD operations that could possibly be converted like America

They have space allocated for 360-450 marines and can act as a commando carrier for heliborne assault, similar to how QE can carry a (smaller) company of marines. If it's just berthing that wouldn't indicate much more in terms of aircraft or stores, but if there are other allocated spaces then it might.

 

[helmutkohl]

talk of a new nuclear powered carrier in Italy, a bit surprised as they already have the Cavour and the Trieste

Italy evaluates nuclear-powered aircraft carrier under long-term naval modernization strategy

Italy evaluates nuclear-powered aircraft carrier under long-term naval modernization strategy

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Archibald]

talk of a new nuclear powered carrier in Italy, a bit surprised as they already have the Cavour and the Trieste

Italy evaluates nuclear-powered aircraft carrier under long-term naval modernization strategy

Italy evaluates nuclear-powered aircraft carrier under long-term naval modernization strategy

www.armyrecognition.com

Yep, that weird. I'm not sure how serious this should be considered. BUT, if Italy wants to help France paying the bill for PA-NG by procuring one, they are welcome. Ti amo Italia, the whole nine yards.
(Reads further) That link is very interesting. Didn't knew Italy went as far as the keel of if its first nuclear attack sub. Plus the Alfa SLBM, of course.

 

[archipeppe]

Yep, that weird. I'm not sure how serious this should be considered. BUT, if Italy wants to help France paying the bill for PA-NG by procuring one, they are welcome. Ti amo Italia, the whole nine yards.
(Reads further) That link is very interesting. Didn't knew Italy went as far as the keel of if its first nuclear attack sub. Plus the Alfa SLBM, of course.

Pàs de tout mon ami.
We want to sella you purtroppo new nuclear carrier....

 

[Phoenix_jz]

Do note that the carrier program under discussion - whether it is nuclear powered or not - is a replacement for Cavour, rather than supplement. She is intended to be replaced around 2040 (most likely it will be an early to mid-2040s replacements) by the future carrier platform.

With regards to the discussion about hangar capacity from 2022 - I aware I'm massively late to the party here, but one should avoid playing Tetris too much, with Cavour and any other carrier. In practice, Cavour's hangar is divided into twelve ~230mq parking areas, accommodating twelve AW101 helicopters, or ten fixed-wing aircraft - AV-8B+ or F-35B. I am not sure what the fixed-wing stowage is rated as lower than the helicopter stowage despite them taking up the same area - it would appear that two of the parking areas are rotary only?

This is fairly consistent when compared to the hangars of the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers, which have a surface area 67% greater (163 x 29 m, 4,727 mq overall versus 134.2 x 21 m, 2,818 mq overall) and are not constrained by a centerline hangar. They can accommodate ~22 AW101 or 20x F-35B in their hangar.

In both cases, the balance of their rated air group is accommodated on the flight deck, similarly to American carriers. This can actually be quite a lot - more than can be stored in the hangar, as seen with this image showing off fifteen F-35B (8) and AV-8B+ (6, +1 TAV-8B) on her flight deck along with two NH90's. But in terms of internal logistical limits, the ship is generally not meant to carry more than a single squadron of fixed-wing aircraft for a sustained period, so 10-12 fixed-wing aircraft is more of a typical load with 15 as a practical maximum, with the rest of the air group being rotary aircraft.




It is also known that the MMI is closely watching British experimentation with UAV/UCAV integration on the Queen Elizabeth-class, and drones will inevitably become a part of her air group in the future. Most critical of all is to fill the same AEW gap the Royal Navy faces, with the helicopter-based systems being inadequate (the British will persist with Crowsnest as an interim solution, while the Italian HEW-784 system on the EH-101A's has not been operated for a while).

 

[Felocie]

Anyone got details on this? It seems pertinent to the conversation

 

[Archibald]

Do note that the carrier program under discussion - whether it is nuclear powered or not - is a replacement for Cavour, rather than supplement. She is intended to be replaced around 2040 (most likely it will be an early to mid-2040s replacements) by the future carrier platform.

With regards to the discussion about hangar capacity from 2022 - I aware I'm massively late to the party here, but one should avoid playing Tetris too much, with Cavour and any other carrier. In practice, Cavour's hangar is divided into twelve ~230mq parking areas, accommodating twelve AW101 helicopters, or ten fixed-wing aircraft - AV-8B+ or F-35B. I am not sure what the fixed-wing stowage is rated as lower than the helicopter stowage despite them taking up the same area - it would appear that two of the parking areas are rotary only?

This is fairly consistent when compared to the hangars of the Queen Elizabeth-class carriers, which have a surface area 67% greater (163 x 29 m, 4,727 mq overall versus 134.2 x 21 m, 2,818 mq overall) and are not constrained by a centerline hangar. They can accommodate ~22 AW101 or 20x F-35B in their hangar.

In both cases, the balance of their rated air group is accommodated on the flight deck, similarly to American carriers. This can actually be quite a lot - more than can be stored in the hangar, as seen with this image showing off fifteen F-35B (8) and AV-8B+ (6, +1 TAV-8B) on her flight deck along with two NH90's. But in terms of internal logistical limits, the ship is generally not meant to carry more than a single squadron of fixed-wing aircraft for a sustained period, so 10-12 fixed-wing aircraft is more of a typical load with 15 as a practical maximum, with the rest of the air group being rotary aircraft.


View attachment 773656

It is also known that the MMI is closely watching British experimentation with UAV/UCAV integration on the Queen Elizabeth-class, and drones will inevitably become a part of her air group in the future. Most critical of all is to fill the same AEW gap the Royal Navy faces, with the helicopter-based systems being inadequate (the British will persist with Crowsnest as an interim solution, while the Italian HEW-784 system on the EH-101A's has not been operated for a while).

How about an AEW variant of AW609 ? can't be worse than an helicopter.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Regarding Italy's potential new CVN:

Italy lays groundwork for future nuclear aircraft carrier

Italy’s 2025–2027 defense plan launches studies for a next-generation aircraft carrier to succeed the Cavour and funds new maritime patrol aircraft.

www.aerotime.aero

Italy has launched early studies for a next-generation aircraft carrier, described in its 2025–2027 Multi-Year Defense Planning Document (DPP) as the Portaerei di nuova generazione, within a record €31.2 billion ($33 billion) defense budget for 2025, up 7.2% from 2024.

The plan allocates €3 million ($3.2 million) this year for the development of advanced naval technologies, with €1 million ($1.1 million) designated for 2026 and €2 million ($2.2 million) for 2027. These funds will support feasibility studies for a future multi-capability carrier and a next-generation submarine, both envisioned as long-term modernization pillars of the Italian Navy.

Although the DPP does not explicitly mention nuclear propulsion, a related initiative known as Project Minerva sheds light on Italy’s broader ambitions. Led by Fincantieri in partnership with Ansaldo Nucleare, RINA Services, and the University of Genoa, the project explores the integration of new-generation small nuclear reactors aboard frontline naval vessels.

The Minerva feasibility study was launched in 2023 under the Ministry of Defense’s Directorate of Naval Armaments, with funding of approximately €588,000 ($640,000), later supplemented by additional allocations reported by industry sources. The study focuses on compact lead-cooled fast reactors (LFR) with an electric output of around 30 MW, a configuration suited to long-endurance, power-intensive ships such as aircraft carriers.

Fincantieri CEO Pierroberto Folgiero has described naval nuclear technology as a “parallel path” to civil nuclear development, positioning Italy among a small group of European nations exploring small modular reactor (SMR) propulsion.

The ‘Portaerei di nuova generazione’ is expected to succeed the Cavour in the 2030s and could incorporate electromagnetic launch systems (EMALS) to operate heavier crewed and uncrewed aircraft.

[snip]

 

[H_K]

View attachment 773656

Bit of a tangent... but it always bugs me how Cavour's ski jump wasn't extended all the way forward (as on the Spanish BPE Juan Carlos class). You could gain 60ft of flight deck space at no cost...

The 76mm gun arcs would be maintained by moving the bow gun to the starboard forward deck edge and the stern gun sponson from the starboard rear corner to the port corner. Each gun would then have an almost 180 degree arc.