Israeli Medium Weight Armored Vehicle Concept - Project Carmel?

[bobbymike]

http://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/29665

https://special-ops.org/news/tech/sneak-peek-israeli-armys-new-tank/

 

[Moose]

This is one of those things that gets excoriated if the US Army proposes it, but now will get a fair shake because IDF.

 

[Void]

It is still a rather goofy idea - it is trying to turn a tank into a rolling attack helicopter even though attack helicopters have proven to be extremely expensive, susceptible to ambushes, demanding to operate and incapable of sustained operations. In other words at odds with all the stated goals. It also returns to the persistent fallacy that substituting physical systems with virtual systems will make the weapon cheaper to own and operate; as if cutting-edge electronics and software are free or CS majors are cheaper to employ than mechanics.

 

[Foo Fighter]

It seems more like a recce vehicle than a tank per se, I am always sceptical of media sources calling vehicles 'tanks' as they usually are not.

 

[DWG]

It does look rather like a grown-up Scimitar.

 

[dan_inbox]

It is still a rather goofy idea - it is trying to turn a tank into a rolling attack helicopter

That's not the point of this concept, at least not to replace tanks where they're supposed to operate, ie in the open.

The future armored platform will be light, agile, small ... and designed primarily for operation in urban areas

Says exactly the opposite: provide protected fire support where tanks are too clumsy.

To me, this looks like heyl shiryon is building on the lessons drawn from fighting in high-rises urban areas, with the makeshift use of M163 Vulcans to reach the skyscrappers' upper storeys. It's creating a purpose-built vehicle with the right arc of fire and connectivity.

Urgency is increasing, with Iran upping their threats of a major war through their hezb'allah puppets now that they see the end of the Syrian quagmire. Last week Iranian generals spoke again about burning Haifa and TA. If they insist enough, the IDF just might have to go back to Beirut to clean them up, and those godcrazies will again use every densely populated area as hideout.
Hence the requirement for Carmel-type equipment...
_ _ _

On the design: I would question the use of caterpillars. For urban areas, 6x6 or 8x8 wheeled should be enough, and be faster, cheaper, longer-operating, etc.

 

[bobbymike]

https://defense-update.com/20190804...jAuJGgq_ZOjA-NemCwHf_J6PmJu3oGjnbydia_TweR26w

 

[yasotay]

That is one bad-a$$ M-113!

 

[dan_inbox]

The Jpest article about the Carmel IFV:
https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/I...ored-fighting-vehicle-The-Carmel-watch-597617

 

[bobbymike]

 

[jsport]

"We are looking at co or even bn capabilites based on a few Carmels and a few crew members alot of unmanned capabilites around it" ....sounds like the end of infantry to me.

 

[Foo Fighter]

I think the infantry will be around for a long while yet.

 

[jsport]

I think the infantry will be around for a long while yet.

from moral injury, to PTSD, to enduring bodily medical issues to increasing c2 complexity and cost per troop of networking and protective and even offensive gear the infantry presents never ending risk not counting the never ending risk of an infantryman being captured.

 

[Foo Fighter]

The risk of an infantryman being captured depends on the opponent and what they might do. TBH, there is very litle interest or care for the little guy in the military and everything you mention is basically part of the job. Until we get robots or cyborgs to do the job we will have the infantry soldier because they will still be the cheapest most adaptable choice. Armour is a little more rocky.

 

[trose213]

The risk of an infantryman being captured depends on the opponent and what they might do. TBH, there is very litle interest or care for the little guy in the military and everything you mention is basically part of the job. Until we get robots or cyborgs to do the job we will have the infantry soldier because they will still be the cheapest most adaptable choice. Armour is a little more rocky.

I think that's pretty debatable on cost. It makes sense if you're the US, but other countries that have a draft. It might make sense if you're Israel to try and automate everything, but it does if you're Singapore.

 

[jsport]

The risk of an infantryman being captured depends on the opponent and what they might do. TBH, there is very litle interest or care for the little guy in the military and everything you mention is basically part of the job. Until we get robots or cyborgs to do the job we will have the infantry soldier because they will still be the cheapest most adaptable choice. Armour is a little more rocky.

It would seem the Israelis don't agree.
Seems to replace infantry in the Vid
https://www.israelifirepower.com/20...fly-drone-unmanned-aerial-vehicle-uav-rafael/

 

[Apophenia]

The Jpest article about the Carmel IFV:

Now '404'.

https://web.archive.org/web/2019080...ored-fighting-vehicle-The-Carmel-watch-597617

 

[bobbymike]

https://breakingdefense.com/2021/10...gdpY-HxPMQ82u7jvBjYAbzFEJFysGL9TnjS5bvXis-pXo

 

[jsport]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/...ates-firefly-loitering-munition-with-vehicles

 

[jsport]

https://breakingdefense.com/2023/09...qaA&utm_content=274238161&utm_source=hs_email
sponsored

 

[Big_Zukini]

Nothing new but wanted to update some of the info here.

First a good read from Jan 2026:

https://euro-sd.com/2026/01/articles/armament/48600/the-carmel-programme-recent-developments/

Carmel is not a full AFV program. It never was. It was a tech demonstration program. The weird tankette illustrated in 2017 was actually the 3x M113 based demonstrators in 2019.

Companies Rafael, IAI, and Elbit were tasked with a tech demonstration of a next generation AFV. It was not supposed to directly mimic an MBT or an IFV. It wasn't built to conform with an existing doctrine.
Once the tech demonstration was complete and IAI won the contract for the next phase, the program splintered into the specific AFVs.
Early iterations of the tech were used on the Eitan, Namer 2, and Barak (Merkava 4).

Of these, the Merkava was in most need of replacement.
Eitan is still a brand new design, and the internal form of the next gen APC remains similar to the previous gen. Hence Namer 2 is very much relevant for the future.

The Merkava, however, its internal layout is outdated and much can be improved. It is thought that a crew capsule would be optimal, and the smaller the better.
That is why the main component of the Carmel program was a demonstration of a 2 man capsule.
Some videos show 3 men, which is actually more relevant to how an APC/IFV operates.

As of right now Israel is right before elections (25 Oct), and the war has also delayed many low priority programs.
Quite likely by end of 2027 we may hear some news about a program to replace the Merkava (and Barak), but that won't be called Carmel.