Is military rank structure obsolete?

[tychosis]

It really doesn't help that the Navy taken an We'll focus on operating the equipment. When it breaks we'll pay some civilian technicians to come and fix it... For the bean counters, accountants, and such, this is a great idea. Fewer spare parts taking up less space on a ship or in a warehouse lowers overhead. Since equipment doesn't break every day or supposedly frequently, paying a company who will send a civilian expert to fix it is cheaper than training sailors to do it. Less specialized tooling, less manpower needed. It's a budgetary win all around.

The problem comes when the ship is in the Indian Ocean and some mission critical system breaks down, maybe something relatively minor, and it will take two weeks to get the parts and the civilian technician flown out to the ship for tens of thousands of dollars to fix it.

There is no "We can fix it ourselves" thinking today. I've seen that myself. It's, 'We'll let the yard fix it when we pull in tomorrow..."

It's a spend a dollar next week to save a nickel today mentality. It's an effect of short-term budgetary thinking.

Unfortunately there's also a lot of "new capability >> everything else" mentality.

I can tell you that in sonar, groups like IWS5 and the ACINT community have the majority of pull regarding what functionality goes into new builds... and considerations like sustainability, bugfixes etc etc fall by the wayside. (And frankly, the new stuff often isn't stuff that is particularly useful or isn't already effectively covered... it's usually some group's pet project that will go unused 99.9% of the time.)

It's really disheartening to have to go to a boat and install a build and have the crew asking "who the hell asked for this crap? nobody needs this. have you guys fixed this other thing that's been an annoyance for ten years now?"

Personally I've always wished that we could just freeze new functionality every few TIs or APBs and offer no new stuff, just work the backlog. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Unfortunately there's also a lot of "new capability >> everything else" mentality.

I can tell you that in sonar, groups like IWS5 and the ACINT community have the majority of pull regarding what functionality goes into new builds... and considerations like sustainability, bugfixes etc etc fall by the wayside. (And frankly, the new stuff often isn't stuff that is particularly useful or isn't already effectively covered... it's usually some group's pet project that will go unused 99.9% of the time.)

It's really disheartening to have to go to a boat and install a build and have the crew asking "who the hell asked for this crap? nobody needs this. have you guys fixed this other thing that's been an annoyance for ten years now?"

Personally I've always wished that we could just freeze new functionality every few TIs or APBs and offer no new stuff, just work the backlog. I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime.

Well, my specialty became what you might call "legacy systems." That is, I'd get sent drawing packages for stuff that was designed and in use 20 or 30 years ago and the Navy couldn't find anybody to make it. So, I'd go through the package and often time have to redesign the whole whatever it was, like say, dry food storage lockers for SSBNs--I actually got permission to take a camera on board one and take pictures of the existing ones, along with measurements. Those were then sent to my command where they sat in a safe when I wasn't using them. Weirdly, the drawings weren't classified, but the pictures were.

 

[tychosis]

Well, my specialty became what you might call "legacy systems." That is, I'd get sent drawing packages for stuff that was designed and in use 20 or 30 years ago and the Navy couldn't find anybody to make it. So, I'd go through the package and often time have to redesign the whole whatever it was, like say, dry food storage lockers for SSBNs--I actually got permission to take a camera on board one and take pictures of the existing ones, along with measurements. Those were then sent to my command where they sat in a safe when I wasn't using them. Weirdly, the drawings weren't classified, but the pictures were.

Yeah, the bulk of my work for a solid decade was tech-refreshing legacy systems and it was extraordinarily painful. I felt like I worked for the Adeptus Mechanicus trying to figure out ancient technology because staggeringly few people really understood how anything actually worked.

(Sure, plenty of people knew how to keep it running--but most of the people who knew why these systems were designed that way were long gone--which is obviously great fun because you get to go through the same hard lessons and discoveries they went through all over again.) =(

 

[Scott Kenny]

Well, my specialty became what you might call "legacy systems." That is, I'd get sent drawing packages for stuff that was designed and in use 20 or 30 years ago and the Navy couldn't find anybody to make it. So, I'd go through the package and often time have to redesign the whole whatever it was, like say, dry food storage lockers for SSBNs--I actually got permission to take a camera on board one and take pictures of the existing ones, along with measurements. Those were then sent to my command where they sat in a safe when I wasn't using them. Weirdly, the drawings weren't classified, but the pictures were.

Oh, so it's your fault that the food mods are weird!

Or maybe the fact that they rattle down some rails into the boat while loaded.

Yeah, the bulk of my work for a solid decade was tech-refreshing legacy systems and it was extraordinarily painful. I felt like I worked for the Adeptus Mechanicus trying to figure out ancient technology because staggeringly few people really understood how anything actually worked.

(Sure, plenty of people knew how to keep it running--but most of the people who knew why these systems were designed that way were long gone--which is obviously great fun because you get to go through the same hard lessons and discoveries they went through all over again.) =(

So you may have to deal with one WG13 Steve Kimbrough. He's abrasive but knows his stuff.

 

[riggerrob]

In most peaceful countries with relatively high levels of economic development, joining the military—especially as an ordinary soldier—is something that only disadvantaged families do. In fact, the role played by so-called contract soldiers is essentially the same as that of conscripts. Even under a conscription system, or even forced conscription, those who are drafted first are always the disadvantaged families lacking social standing. In this regard, contract soldiers and conscripts are nearly equivalent.

To quote the American song-writer Steve Earle "I joined on my birthday, they take white trash first 'round here anyways ...."

As wars drag out, armies are forced to drop their enlistment/conscription standards.

In a society that has plenty of well-paying factory jobs, it is tough to find volunteers to fight in the trenches.

That is a very, very long way from being true in the US.

• Yes, there are people who join the military to get out of their poor situation. They were some of the hardest workers I met in service, because getting kicked out or leaving the service drops them right back into their bad life.
• There are people who join the military to get the college benefits. College fund, GI bill, etc. Most of these guys were also busting their butts while in, because getting kicked out on a disciplinary means they lose all the benefits. But they do tend to leave after their first enlistment. Maybe they stay for the full 8 years to build up a nest egg and not have to deal with any reserve service after they get out. Thing is, sometimes they come back, usually as an officer because they hate dealing with civilians after working with goofy-but-competent people.
• There are also people who join for the challenge. To change their life. <- This was me. I was profoundly unhappy with where I was in life, but I had a pretty decent job as an aircraft mechanic before I went in. Had an asshole boss, though, and nobody really explaining what was going on where I worked. Just thrown in and expected to know all the company processes instinctively. Plus just about every one of my co-workers on my line was a veteran.
• There are people who join because it's the family business. ("Dad was a Marine, Grandpa was a Marine," etc)
• And there are people who join because it's legal to end people when you're in the military. (Not many, and they usually don't deal with people telling them what to do very well so they get kicked out.) The ones who manage to stay in the military usually end up in front line or special operations units.

There is also an immense psychological difference between "I volunteered to do this" and "I was conscripted even though I don't want to be here"





This. So much this. The USN offers tens-to-hundred-thousands of dollars to retain nuclear-trained people.

Had a nuke get outed as gay when I was in (back when don't-ask-don't-tell was the rule). Outed by a jealous ex, in fact. Gonzo was one of the best teachers on the boat,. Nobody on the boat wanted to let him go. But shitbag ex who was getting kicked out was determined to drag Gonzo down with him. A couple months after Gonzo was let go for convenience of the government, so he kept all his benefits, one of the nukes said he'd gotten hired at a plant back home in California making 25/hr as a mechanic. (back in 01 or 02) As soon as he dropped his resume on the desk at that powerplant he had a job. And now he worked like 45 hours a week instead of around 95 hours a week in the Navy.

Whether or not a military will tolerate gays depends upon the labour market. Some armies and navies tolerate gays when they are short -staffed (e.g. during wartime) but as soon as the war ends, demand for manpower drops and any "odd" soldiers get booted.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

To quote the American song-writer Steve Earle "I joined on my birthday, they take white trash first 'round here anyways ...."

As wars drag out, armies are forced to drop their enlistment/conscription standards.

In a society that has plenty of well-paying factory jobs, it is tough to find volunteers to fight in the trenches.

Whether or not a military will tolerate gays depends upon the labour market. Some armies and navies tolerate gays when they are short -staffed (e.g. during wartime) but as soon as the war ends, demand for manpower drops and any "odd" soldiers get booted.

Actually, few if anybody cares if some guy is gay or not so long as he isn't flaunting it. Had one in a shop I was in. Everybody pretty much knew he was gay but nobody particularly cared since he didn't bother anyone, did a good job and stood his watches correctly. Problem was the ship was at Alameda and San Fran proved too much temptation. He ended up being booted because of off ship behavior.