ID of French unguided rocket needed

[Jemiba]

On http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/article-morane-saulnier-ms-733-alcyon-50567528-comments.html
the installation for the use of unguided rockets with the Morane Saulnier MS.733 is shown, but the rocket
itself doesn't really fit those on photos of armed Alcyons. Can anyone identify the type and perhaps can give
some data, especially length and diameter ?

 

[Michel Van]

the MS.733A was used as trainer by French Airforce
also used as counter-insurgency Aircraft in Algeria civil war.
most french text says "de paniers lance-roquettes" = holder for Rocket-propelled grenade

so this must be a Anti-tank RPG

 

[Apophenia]

It appears to be the 28 kg SERAM T10 (on 'zero length' Matra T14 lance-roquettes) which M. Moulin describes elsewhere. Dimensions are shown on the drawing. Warheads could be HE 90mm, 120mm, or hollow-charge.

http://avions-de-la-guerre-d-algerie.over-blog.com/article-armements-des-aeronefs--39422716.html

BTW: the ALKAN type 50 modèle 46 shown in the blog are an update on the WWII Luftwaffe Schloß 50 L-2 light bomb-rack.

 

[Michel Van]

thx for the info Apophenia

 

[Jemiba]

Steven, many thanks for this comprehensive answer and sorry for my blindness !
I was just a few mouseclicks away and I already had a clue, that led me to the designation
"SERAM T 10", but all my sources and search engines left me in the lurch. You even answered
my next question about the different shapes of those rocket on most photos ! Thanks again !

 

[Apophenia]

Jens: it's a great blog ... but not the easiest to navigate, I find

Michel: on those "paniers lance-roquettes", I don't think this implies RGPs necessarily, just rockets. So, maybe translate loosely as 'rocket launcher racks'?

 

[Michel Van]

Jens: it's a great blog ... but not the easiest to navigate, I find

Michel: on those "paniers lance-roquettes", I don't think this implies RGPs necessarily, just rockets. So, maybe translate loosely as 'rocket launcher racks'?

my french comprehension is not perfect
next to that is confusions if french write of "paniers roquettes", "paniers de missile" or "de paniers lance-roquettes"

 

[tiikki]

Rockets (T-10) Range 1km, total weight 28kg, flight speed 340m/s
HE warhead Type 140: Warhead 5lb 9oz tolite, total weight 12.40kg
HEAT warhead Type 151: Warhead 3lb 9oz hexolite 60/40, penetration 35-45cm, total weight 12.40kg
WP warhead Type 145: Warhead 11lbs WP, total weight 12.40kg
Rocket engine: 8.8lbs rocket engine SERAM Type 106

This data is taken from Finnish manual for this rocket and from Fouga Magister material.

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for this clarification ! Am I right, that the WP warhead is for target marking ?

 

[tiikki]

Thanks for this clarification ! Am I right, that the WP warhead is for target marking ?

White Phosphorus is interesting stuff. The legal status of using it in battlefield depends on why it has been used. If I recall correctly and have understood correctly it can be used as smoke generation and as a incendiary device but not against personnel. Is it legal to use smoke from WP round as a target marking? I don't know. Is it legal to use WP as incendiary device against building occupied by enemy troops? I don't know.

 

[Rickshaw]

Thanks for this clarification ! Am I right, that the WP warhead is for target marking ?

White Phosphorus is interesting stuff. The legal status of using it in battlefield depends on why it has been used. If I recall correctly and have understood correctly it can be used as smoke generation and as a incendiary device but not against personnel. Is it legal to use smoke from WP round as a target marking? I don't know. Is it legal to use WP as incendiary device against building occupied by enemy troops? I don't know.

Partially correct. The legal status of the use of WP as a weapon depends entirely upon it's intended purpose and not upon it's usage. If the weapon is designed and intended to be used as an incendary weapon against personnel and particularly civilians, it is illegal. However, if the weapon is intended to be used as an obscurant or marking weapon, then it is legal. If such a weapon is then used as an incendary or anti-personnel weapon, intent must be proved (which is obviously going to be very difficult). Manufacture, stockpile and use of WP is not illegal under the Chemical Weapons Convention.

 

[cardonet]

A picture of an early T10 prototype

 

[Petrus]

Rockets (T-10) Range 1km, total weight 28kg, flight speed 340m/s
HE warhead Type 140: Warhead 5lb 9oz tolite, total weight 12.40kg
HEAT warhead Type 151: Warhead 3lb 9oz hexolite 60/40, penetration 35-45cm, total weight 12.40kg
WP warhead Type 145: Warhead 11lbs WP, total weight 12.40kg
Rocket engine: 8.8lbs rocket engine SERAM Type 106

This data is taken from Finnish manual for this rocket and from Fouga Magister material.

What about the rocket's dimensions? IFAIK the HE warhead's diameter was 105mm and that of the HEAT version was 120mm. Do you have info on the rocket engine's diameter as well as over-all length of the rocket?

Piotr

 

[Jemiba]

Maybe it can be calculated using the drawing in #2 ?

 

[Petrus]

Maybe it can be calculated using the drawing in #2 ?

I've made such calculations several times using different drawings, each time the outcome was different.
P.

 

[tiikki]

Rockets (T-10) Range 1km, total weight 28kg, flight speed 340m/s
HE warhead Type 140: Warhead 5lb 9oz tolite, total weight 12.40kg
HEAT warhead Type 151: Warhead 3lb 9oz hexolite 60/40, penetration 35-45cm, total weight 12.40kg
WP warhead Type 145: Warhead 11lbs WP, total weight 12.40kg
Rocket engine: 8.8lbs rocket engine SERAM Type 106

This data is taken from Finnish manual for this rocket and from Fouga Magister material.

What about the rocket's dimensions? IFAIK the HE warhead's diameter was 105mm and that of the HEAT version was 120mm. Do you have info on the rocket engine's diameter as well as over-all length of the rocket?

Piotr

According to the Finnish manual:
All warheads 120mm
Engine:
Outside diameter 80.3mm
Wall thickness: 3.7mm
Total length 1 012 mm

On my notes there is no info on total length. (I only took photos on pages relevant on calculating game statistics for this.)
I'll try to remember check it next time when I visit the aviation museum library.

 

[tiikki]

Total length from fin to tip: 158.5cm
Measured today from inert museum item. (Museum staff is extremely nice if you are the only customer at the moment.)

 

[Petrus]

At http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/Mission.asp you may find information on the T-10 rocket's warheads and their dimensions and weights:

Type 140, 120-mm HE: http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/srdetaildesc.asp?ordid=1591
Type 151, 120-mm HEAT: http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/srdetaildesc.asp?ordid=1407
Type 104, 120-mm Inert: http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/srdetaildesc.asp?ordid=1597
Type 145, 120-mm Smoke: http://maic.jmu.edu/ordata/srdetaildesc.asp?ordid=1602

If I am not mistaken there was also a 105-mm warhead being used by Armee de l'Air as well.

Bes regards,

Piotr

PS. A post with info on diameter and length of the rocket motor unfortunately disappeared.

EDIT. And it reappeared. Thank you

 

[_Del_]

Total length from fin to tip: 158.5cm
Measured today from inert museum item. (Museum staff is extremely nice if you are the only customer at the moment.)

I really have just about zero interest in the exact measurement of this particular weapon, but I want to thank you (and others like you) for taking the time and making an actual effort to discover such things for other posters. It is what makes this corner of the internet a fantastic place to while away some free time!

 

[Petrus]

In "Les Chasseurs Dassault. Ouragans, Mysteres et Super-Mysteres" by Jean Cuny I've just found information on dimensions and weights of unguided rockets used in France in the 1950s. You'll find the information in a cut out from the book - it's obviously in French, but it really is self-explanatory.

Piotr

 

[Roland55]

The T.10s were used by argentine Meteors, Huanqueros, Morane Saulnier 760s and even in the Pucara !

 

[Kazziga]

It seems that a modified T-10 (known in Argentina as "Yarará") was used to launch the rat Belisario. Does anyone have any information concerning that particular rocket?

 

[Roland55]

It seems that a modified T-10 (known in Argentina as "Yarará") was used to launch the rat Belisario. Does anyone have any information concerning that particular rocket?

Probably not related to the T-10 rocket on this thread, its seems too small, but idk