how to rebuild US shipbuilding, and prepare for future conflicts

The JSM is a high end weapon designed for high end threats.

Any threat worth an anti-ship missile is a "high end threat" lmao.

The alternative isn't a "cheaper cruise missile" for low end threats, it's a JDAM, or raking fire from a Mk 44 or 5" gun.

If we wanted to describe all cars as the same market segment, ie a mode of transport, then sure they fit together, but I don't go to the BMW dealership expecting to pay Ford costs.

This is a really asinine description because it's the opposite of what you're doing. You're describing all cruise missiles as a single market segment. I'm telling you the JSM is a hatchback that nobody buys many of. Barracuda-500 is someone's proposed cheaper hatchback.

If you're talking about Barracuda-100...you should have said that in the first place.

If you're saying Barracuda-500 is a good replacement for LRASM...lol.

Barracuda is aimed at a different market and really a different target set than the JSM

What is a different target that requires triple digit nautical miles of range or a similar weight and effects warhead?

and that alone is the primary reason for the cost difference and the ability to manufacture at the rate Anduril projects and that JSM could almost certainly not meet.

Anduril hasn't made any Barracudas and its prior experience in mass manufacturing don't give joy. It failed with Roadrunner to make something competitive with RTX's Coyote. Q-44 does not seem well suited to the job asked of it (air-to-air) given external stowage versus Q-42's internal stowage and moderate LO either. It is now likely to fail with even securing orders given that Kongsberg has the market segment of "lightweight medium range anti-ship missile" locked down.

It is a distant possibility they may be able to compete with Spike-NLOS's "helicopter launched long range guided missile", given that is an area of interest of armed forces and relatively poorly penetrated, so there's not many products in that space yet. Depends on how well Barracuda-100 handles a BLOS datalink.

but there is clearly an opportunity and market space for it be successful if they can deliver on the promise.

Not for an air- or naval-launched anti-ship missile. JSM has that market segment locked in. It's much cheaper to continue to buy JSMs than to approve a new weapon, given JSM is only purchased at a rate of "a few dozen" a year, too.
 
Any threat worth an anti-ship missile is a "high end threat" lmao.

The alternative isn't a "cheaper cruise missile" for low end threats, it's a JDAM, or raking fire from a Mk 44 or 5" gun.
Again you are missing the point. The debate here is about 500t targets that are not high end threats. That target is not necessarily in range of a JDAM or a 5" shell from a surface platform.
This is a really asinine description because it's the opposite of what you're doing. You're describing all cruise missiles as a single market segment. I'm telling you the JSM is a hatchback that nobody buys many of. Barracuda-500 is someone's proposed cheaper hatchback.
Except I don't agree with your assessment of JSM and neither do the nations buying it.
If you're saying Barracuda-500 is a good replacement for LRASM...lol.
Again you have very much missed the point.
 
Again you are missing the point. The debate here is about 500t targets that are not high end threats. That target is not necessarily in range of a JDAM or a 5" shell from a surface platform.

Littoral threats are not something the U.S. Navy concerns itself with because the U.S. Navy cannot operate in the South China Sea without first destroying the PLAN's surface fleets. The missile boats are something that will be picked off by aviation once the sea becomes amenable to operations of offensive carrier groups hundreds of miles outside the range of the C-802s or YJ-83s or whatever they carry.

The practical reality is that the PLAN has 50 Burkes, 45 Perries, and is slowly gaining enough Kitty Hawk sized carriers to muster one to three CVBGs, and these are far greater threats than some missile boats.

The Type 22 and Type 37 FACs that the PRC operates, which are the only ships that fit in roughly that tonnage range, can be defeated by a Seahawk with a JAGM or a Super Hornet with a 500 lbs LJDAM. They are threats to be destroyed once the main battle fleet has been sunk and the South China Sea has been secured for operations by surface ships in the first place.

They are not a threat to aviation and a minor threat to surface warships because they do not have the range to attack carrier battlegroups in deep ocean. Far more concerning to a carrier skirting the second island chain while flinging F-35Cs at stuff is the 40-something Kilos and half dozen 688is the PLAN has.

As I said, Anduril could make a lot of money. Just not in making missiles, or anything like missiles, because they've proven quite bad at that.

Except I don't agree with your assessment of JSM and neither do the nations buying it.

A 250 lbs warhead isn't really a Burke killer lol. A pair of 250 lbs warheads had trouble disabling a Perry.

Those are the things you fire LRASM or JASSM at. JSMs are suitable for killing the Type 22s, 37s, and 56s. They might disable a 53 or 54 since those are Perry sized but you'd need more than one probably. The latter three are what is really important since they have missiles that out range the JAGM and are primary surface units that can traverse the SCS beyond just the littorals and immediate Taiwan area.

The 22s and 37s are just going to die to AH-1Zs loaded with Hellfires pretty much after the U.S. actually wins the war, since it'll win based solely on how quickly troops from ROK and the JSDF can arrive, and how much the ROKN and JMSDF surface units can attrit the PLAN undersea forces before they die to PLAN/PLANAF/PLAAF aviation.

Besides not being a serious threat, due to a variety of reasons ranging from being maintenance queens to simply not having range both sailing and weapon-wise, it's the lack of air defense that kills the Type 22. It's a warmed over Osa class and, like in the Battle of Bubiyan, it would be slaughtered by fixed wing and helicopter aviation before it ever spots an enemy warship.

It'd be scary if it had a bow mounted HQ-7 because then it might actually be able to defend itself from the helicopters hunting it. Alas...

Again you have very much missed the point.

Your point is that the Barracuda-500 is sized to kill a Type 22. Okay? Cool I guess.

I mean, it's not wrong, but it misses the part where killing the Type 22 is something that occurs at the very end of an otherwise successful naval campaign and doesn't need a weapon specific to it. By the time you're needing to swat the little missile boats you've secured air superiority over the PRC coast and are probably looking to launch an amphibious invasion. Much less does the Navy need a FAC that can close in, with Phalanxes and tiny missiles, to bully other missile boats when it has trouble producing enough surface units to secure its SLOCs and trade convoys.

There are plenty of weapons that are already in inventory where it would be much cheaper, and much faster, to simply put in additional orders to establish new factories and production lines to be honest. LJDAM, JAGM, Hellfire-R, JSM...

There's no need for the DAF or DON to actually buy Barracuda-M of any size when existing inventory covers it more or less. There's about 100 or so ships with very limited air defense that won't be able to stop a laser guided bomb from an F-18 dropped from 10,000 feet.

Conversely, there's plenty of reason to believe that Anduril can't be trusted to deliver on their promises either. The last time anyone gave them a chance (DON and the Roadrunner-M), they ended up costing 5x as much as the competition (RTX Coyote) per shot, but it's not like anyone will be buying more Barracuda-M. They'll be bought at the same rate, and likely the same quantity, as JSM!

If anyone "needs" Barracuda-M it's the Taiwanese, not the United States, because the US has enough money to just mass produce JSMs, JASSMs, and LRASMs. Which is exactly what it's doing. Assuming the Barracuda-M comes anywhere close to $200,000, and not something more like $2,000,000, since Anduril has a habit of misplacing zeroes in their cost predictions, maybe they could include a free integration on F-CK-1, stores tests, local production facility, and initial 300 war rounds on the house for that.

Since Barracuda-M is so cheap, all that is basically nothing to Anduril, right.
 
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The practical reality is that the PLAN has 50 Burkes, 45 Perries,
The practical reality is, that PLAN has:

* 8 missile cruisers (roughly equivalent "if Ticonderoga was build right now")
* 31 missile destroyer (six roughly equivalent to early "Arleigh Burke", the rest are more or less compatible with Flight II)
* 11 missile destroyers of older types (no direct analogue in USN, less capable than "Arleigh Burke" Flight I)
* 38 missile frigates (no direct analogue in USN, but order of magnitude more capable than old OHP-class)
* 10 missile frigates of older types
* 50 missile corvettes capable of sea operations
 
The practical reality is, that PLAN has:

* 8 missile cruisers (roughly equivalent "if Ticonderoga was build right now")
* 31 missile destroyer (six roughly equivalent to early "Arleigh Burke", the rest are more or less compatible with Flight II)
* 11 missile destroyers of older types (no direct analogue in USN, less capable than "Arleigh Burke" Flight I)
* 38 missile frigates (no direct analogue in USN, but order of magnitude more capable than old OHP-class)
* 10 missile frigates of older types
* 50 missile corvettes capable of sea operations

I was speaking for ship survivability. I doubt the PLAN is building anything as squishy as a Tico lol. Perry is a proven tough cookie, compared to contemporaries like the 42s, while Burke was an improvement in survivability over the Ticos. Anyway all those vessels are worth an LRASM or JASSM. The Type 22s can eat a JSM or something since they aren't very numerous and their air defenses are very limited.
 
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The practical reality is, that PLAN has:

* 8 missile cruisers (roughly equivalent "if Ticonderoga was build right now")
* 31 missile destroyer (six roughly equivalent to early "Arleigh Burke", the rest are more or less compatible with Flight II)
* 11 missile destroyers of older types (no direct analogue in USN, less capable than "Arleigh Burke" Flight I)
* 38 missile frigates (no direct analogue in USN, but order of magnitude more capable than old OHP-class)
* 10 missile frigates of older types
* 50 missile corvettes capable of sea operations
You are far underestimating 052Ds, they are much more similar to flight III Burkes in technology and can carry much more potent antisurface weapons. There are also in fact 40(or possibly 39) 052Ds total if you count all the ones that are underconstruction and could be commissioned in the next 2ish years. There are also 9 055s and a few more in late stages of construction(unclear wether the new batch would have 6 or 8 ships since only 6 are spotted underconstruction). As for older DDGs, I personally would count them as large anti air/command frigates post-MLU as most of them are fitted with similar subsystem as 054A/Bs with similar weapon config(but capable of carrying more due to being physically larger).

PS: Your frigate number didn't account for the newly comissioned 054Bs and I think a few more new 054As.

Effectively your info is a good 5-8 years out of date.
 
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In fact, the 14th 055 is almost out, and the 11th and 12th ships were launched in May this year.
 

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