How many AFVG

[pathology_doc]

I think Jaguar worked well as a P1154 substitute for the RAF (with the P1127RAF filling part of the requirement).
A combo of 48 F111K (replacing the Vulcan B2) and several hundred AFVG replacing Phantoms and Buccaneers in the fighter and strike roles would have been excellent. Some might even have served on Ark Royal.

How compatible with carrier work was AFVG to have been?

Also, please remind me what happened to the F-111K IRL.

 

[Yellow Palace]

How compatible with carrier work was AFVG to have been?

In the initial conception, one of the primary customers was to be the French Navy as a carrierborne fighter.

 

[Archibald]

So : full CATOBAR. With the additional goodies that Foch, Clemenceau, Ark Royal and Eagle catapults were all BS-5 / BS-5A, with different lengths however.
It should be noted that the French build a 17 tons VG Mirage G and managed approaches at 125 kt and touchdowns at 108 kt. The AVFG was not much heavier than the Mirage G and much lighter than the G4/G8, thanks to the diminutive size and weight of its M45G turbofans. A pair of Atar 9K50 is heavy, a single TF306E is massive too, and a pair of M45G is close enough from a TF306E.

So, let me ask to our resident british carrier experts here. If provided with the Mirage G splendid low speed performance, see above, which british carriers could handle it outside or Ark and Eagle ? Could Victorious and Hermes do it ? IMHO an AFVG is much "gentler" than a Phantom massive flying brick.

 

[Yellow Palace]

The AVFG was not much heavier than the Mirage G

No great surprise, given that both were intended to launch and land from the same decks.

So, let me ask to our resident british carrier experts here. If provided with the Mirage G splendid low speed performance, see above, which british carriers could handle it outside or Ark and Eagle ? Could Victorious and Hermes do it ? IMHO an AFVG is much "gentler" than a Phantom massive flying brick.

Weight and approach speed for the Mirage G are comparable to the Sea Vixen. The AFVG would likely be similar, so I'd anticipate anything that could handle Sea Vixens being able to handle them.

 

[zen]

So, let me ask to our resident british carrier experts here. If provided with the Mirage G splendid low speed performance, see above, which british carriers could handle it outside or Ark and Eagle ? Could Victorious and Hermes do it ? IMHO an AFVG is much "gentler" than a Phantom massive flying brick.

Looks like yes.
If touchdown is below 125kts.

Essentially AFVG is close to Type 583 in design.

 

[Rule of cool]

It was speculation that Germany would buy a lot more Tornados then they did. Panavia during development & manufacturing process would have looked into the LW own detailed requirements not left it 'to the british to make it up' based on F-104 numbers

Panavia was a company formed to build the numbers of aircraft that the customers wanted. From 1969 to 1972 the Germans stated they wanted 600 aircraft, and on this basis they got the design HQ and first flight location. However I contend that the British should have at least suspected that the number was exaggerated due to the Germans interest in the Phantom and actual RF4E orders and F4F development activities. From they they should have fought harder to get the design HQ and first flight.

 

[Cjc]

Panavia was a company formed to build the numbers of aircraft that the customers wanted. From 1969 to 1972 the Germans stated they wanted 600 aircraft, and on this basis they got the design HQ and first flight location. However I contend that the British should have at least suspected that the number was exaggerated due to the Germans interest in the Phantom and actual RF4E orders and F4F development activities. From they they should have fought harder to get the design HQ and first flight.

I suspect it wouldn't have changed anything, the uk needs germany far more then germany needs the uk. They could have gust stayed with f-104 replacement crowed and built f-16s. The uk gust never had a lot of negotiating power with the Tornado.

 

[Rule of cool]

I suspect it wouldn't have changed anything, the uk needs germany far more then germany needs the uk. They could have gust stayed with f-104 replacement crowed and built f-16s. The uk gust never had a lot of negotiating power with the Tornado.

I disagree, Germany wanted to develop an advanced combat aircraft not just build one and Britain was the only MRCA participant that could and recently had designed and built an advanced combat aircraft from scratch.

 

[Cjc]

I disagree, Germany wanted to develop an advanced combat aircraft not just build one and Britain was the only MRCA participant that could and recently had designed and built an advanced combat aircraft from scratch.

They didn't want to biuld it nearly as badly as the uk did though. There aircraft lobby wasn't nearly as powerful.

 

[Rule of cool]

They didn't want to biuld it nearly as badly as the uk did though. There aircraft lobby wasn't nearly as powerful.

Sure, but it did give Germany an opportunity that going in with the F16 wouldn't have.

In any case the F18 would be better than the F16 for Germany, like it was for Canada and Australia. In fact it was just better.

 

[alertken]

cjc/roc: MRCA Offtake guesses. It wasn't as devious as that, though BSP/Bombers,2003, P.182) has 3/70 FRG 600, It 200, UK 385. RB199 Memorandum of Understanding 10/10/69 envisaged 3,000 engines (was that 1,000 a/c?). The basis of equipment procurement agreed in Devt Phase MoU, 22/7/70 FRG+UK only, that day) was 807 production a/c. I never saw a breakdown, though Italy settled on 100 when they were, ah, encouraged to stay in by 9/70 offer of 15% R&D workshare for 13% cost (they would get a similar deal in production).

Panavia was instructed by the Buyer, NAMMA, to complete the Definition Phase, after Neths left, 28/7/69, on 42.5/42.5%, 15%, and they so constructed their HQ and so carved up their Air Vehicle workshares. 807 was in fact nearly so built (805 new + Devt/Pre Series/R.Sa.AF).

The sole driver for us all was to dissuade FRG from meeting most of their 1980-ish $: DM Offset commitments by another F-licence. What a small price, UK to accept a GmbH structure for the Prime Contractor (FRG accepted a Ltd Co for the engine). Much, much more important was to settle on English as Project language!

No-one knew we would actually build so many: 3 Democracies would have a dozen General Elections in which any one could be lured out by Marianne or Columbia. Of course Belgium, Canada, Neths were

 

[Rule of cool]

The fighting with allies is 2nd only to fighting the enemy!