how good can some copy a Aircraft ?

[Michel Van]

Idea:
a Enginer let say in Brazil aerospace companie in 1960s

get on visit from his Boss and Military atlong a Mirage IIIC Jetfigther
with order copy and rebuild that aircraft for Mass production in Brazil.

Question:
is that possbly to Rebuild a Aircraft like that, only with working orginal and no Plans ?

 

[archipeppe]

Question:
is that possbly to Rebuild a Aircraft like that, only with working orginal and no Plans ?

Russians really did it with the Boeing B29, they get at least 3 aircrafts, landed in emergency after a bomb run over Japan.
Stalin ordered Tupolev, one of the best designers, to seize the aircrafts - piece by piece - and copy.
Only variations was, obviously, in engines and guns.

Americans didn't had any suspect until the moment in which Russians requested spare parts for B 29 brakes, and finally realized it in 1948 when the "new" Tupolev Tu-4 ("Bull" in NATOCode) was publicly exposed....

 

[flateric]

...as well as attempt to copy-cat F-86 as well

 

[archipeppe]

...as well as attempt to copy-cat F-86 as well

Really?? This is new for me (even if not so surprising).
But why do Russians want to copy F-86 when they had the almost excellent MiG 15/17 in their hands.

Life is a strange thing, because when Americans had obtained (by a North Corean defeated pilot) a flying MiG 15 they was amazed by it.....

 

[Archibald]

Isn't this method called "reverse ingeniering" ? Have an aircraft by a, hmmm, not regular way, then dismantle it, copy every single element, and teach your ingeniers and technicians...

I think the Chinese are rather good at this game no ?

 

[flateric]

Take your babelfish and go on http://www.dorogavnebo.ru/st/st.php?n=007
Sabre was delivered in GLIKI VVS at the end of 1951 (after landing at N.Korea seashore after dogfight, pilot was rescued by US SAR team).

Nothing good came of this attempt, of course.

 

[archipeppe]

Take your babelfish and go on http://www.dorogavnebo.ru/st/st.php?n=007
Sabre was delivered in GLIKI VVS at the end of 1951 (after landing at N.Korea seashore after dogfight, pilot was rescued by US SAR team).

Nothing good came of this attempt, of course.

Thanks, in any case I'm able to read cyrillic and I've also some small comprehension of Russian that allow me to understand the sense.....

 

[Hood]

It's not easy though. The Soviets when copying the B-29 had to change all the dimensions from Imperial to Metric measurements on practically everything so its not a complete copy as they vary from the B-29 in size and structual layout. Then you also have to copy every electronic component that you don't have a similar version of.

The F-86 copy was Pavl Sukhoi's rehabiliation after Stalin's mini purge of the early 1950s. Then he said I can do better and so came along the Su-7...

Then there is Beriev S-13 U-2 copy that was built but never completed nor flown. It taught the Soviets much about new lightweight materials, new electronics and the engine was also copied (but never used in any other design?) Work was cancelled by MAP but I'm not sure why. I'm guessing political aspects played a role such as copying Western technology and admitting it and lack of practical use (ie. if we shot down a U-2 then the West can shoot our copy too).

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

Copying the F-86 was the idea of a TsAGI engineer (Kondratyev I think) who was given some engineers from OKB-1 (?) to work on the project. After Sukhoi was rehabilitated this team formed the nucleus of the new Sukhoi team as OKB 51.

Its not correct to say nothing came of the F-86 reverse engineering. The ranging radar was reverse engineered and formed the basis of several Russian systems. Other technologies were assimilated. And Sukhoi's fighters soon gained a reputation for roomy, US-style cockpits in comparison with MiG...

 

[Just call me Ray]

Reverse-engineering an aircraft outright is difficult and rarely done, usually specific technologies, components or concepts are reverse-engineered rather than whole aircraft.

In addition to the aforementioned measurement problem, the Tu-4s also suffered from different metallurgy practices between the U.S. and the Soviets. The Li-2, for example, wound up being heavier than the DC-3 even though it was a license-built version of the DC-3 and we gave them everything they needed to copy it.

The Chinese did try to reverse-engineer a 707, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai_Y-10

Other than that, if you can match the metallurgy and measurements, sure, you can copy an aircraft. That's basically what the IAI Nesher was, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Nesher

 

[r16]

ı always have thought the Nesher was practically license produced as at least the ATAR blueprints were handed over through Switzerland .

edit : I have seen the Wikipedia article and , well , been surprised .It turns out I have been out of date on this one for years.

 

[Michel Van]

many thanks for reply ;D

and for my big suprice that Mirage Jet alrady copy by some one !

 

[LowObservable]

What do people here think of the Wings Magazine story from 8/2000? AFAIK that is the only source for the version of the Nesher/Kfir story cited in Wackypedia. Based on an interview with US designer Gene Salvay, it says that the there was no spy operation but that France shipped 50 knocked-down Mirages covertly in USAF C-5s. ("Nesher" deliveries started in May 1971, a year after the C-5 entered service.)

Salvay/Wings goes on to say that he led a Rockwell team in Israel that designed the Kfir in "12 months ending in June 1971". (The definitive Kfir prototype flew in June 1973.) They had full cooperation from Dassault, and Ben Rich apparently helped Salvay out with cooling issues in the new rear fuselage.

An Israeli account is slightly different, saying that Dassault provided a manufacturing license for the Mirage and the only sticky part was the Atar engine, which was actually the target of the espionage operation against Switzerland. (This does avoid a criticism of the Salvay account - wouldn't it be easier and a hell of a lot less obvious to ship the Mirages by sea?)

http://merchav-aviri.org/english/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=37