Horten Jet Aircraft Projects

[Dagger]

can anyone explain the logic behing this humungous nosewheel?

especially as rubber was a scarce material in ww2 germany

According to Marek Rys and Marek Murawsky on page 160 in their book Horten Ho 229 (Monographs Special Edition in 3 D) the Ho 229 nosewheel was the tailwheel of a Heinkel He 177 bomber, and during taxiing the nosewheel bore nearly half of the aircraft's weight.

From drawings in this book it is clear that the nosewheel was not rotated 90 degrees when retracted. When retracted it sat behind the cockpit.

From page 170 of the same book: the main landing gear wheels were from a Bf 109 G.

All three wheels were retracted hydraulically and lowered by gravity force.

 

[newsdeskdan]

can anyone explain the logic behing this humungous nosewheel?

especially as rubber was a scarce material in ww2 germany

According to Marek Rys and Marek Murawsky on page 160 in their book Horten Ho 229 (Monographs Special Edition in 3 D) the Ho 229 nosewheel was the tailwheel of a Heinkel He 177 bomber, and during taxiing the nosewheel bore nearly half of the aircraft's weight.

From drawings in this book it is clear that the nosewheel was not rotated 90 degrees when retracted. When retracted it sat behind the cockpit.

From page 170 of the same book: the main landing gear wheels were from a Bf 109 G.

All three wheels were retracted hydraulically and lowered by gravity force.

I think they may be wrong about the He 177 tailwheel. According to Guenther Sengfelder in German Aircraft Landing Gear, the He 177 A-1 tailwheel was 780 x 260mm, with later models having an 875 x 320mm tailwheel. The nosewheel of the Ho 229 was 1015 x 380mm - see attached drawing from German undercarriage manufacturer Kroenprinz from August 1944. That's not to say that the tyre was bespoke - it may well have come from something else - but it probably wasn't an He 177 tailwheel.
It's also been suggested that the nosewheel came from the main gear of a B-24. But that was evidently 56in in diameter - which I think would make it too big.
The main landing gear wheels were from a Bf 109 (mark unspecified), as noted by Reimar Horten in his March 1, 1945, project description (see also attached). Evidently the plan for the series production model was to use the main wheels from an Me 262 instead.

 

[Dagger]

Rys & Murawski mention that the Ho 229 nosewheel was 1015 x 380 and the main wheels were 740 x 210.
Multiple 3D renderings in their book show tyres with these sizes on them. The tyres of nosewheel as well as main wheels also state: Continental.

In the Horten Ho 229 Spirit of Thuringia book by Shepelev & Ottens there is a drawing with Continental 1015 x 380 on the nosewheel tyre, as well as a photo with (poorly readable) Continental 1015 x 380 on the nosewheel tyre.

In neither book I see a photo of the main tyres on which lettering is visible.

From the scale 1:72 drawings in the Rys & Murawski book it seems that the Ho 229V3 had indeed a 1015 nosewheel tyre, but the Ho 229V2 drawing shows a smaller nosewheel than the V3. I estimate from the V2 drawing about 765 mm diameter, so maybe only the V2 (and V1 ?) used a He 177 tailwheel.

I don't recall ever reading about the suggestion that a B-24 wheel was used for the Ho 229, but B-24 nosewheels were used as nosewheels for the Ju 287 jet bomber prototype.

 

[newsdeskdan]

Rys & Murawski mention that the Ho 229 nosewheel was 1015 x 380 and the main wheels were 740 x 210.
Multiple 3D renderings in their book show tyres with these sizes on them. The tyres of nosewheel as well as main wheels also state: Continental.

In the Horten Ho 229 Spirit of Thuringia book by Shepelev & Ottens there is a drawing with Continental 1015 x 380 on the nosewheel tyre, as well as a photo with (poorly readable) Continental 1015 x 380 on the nosewheel tyre.

In neither book I see a photo of the main tyres on which lettering is visible.

From the scale 1:72 drawings in the Rys & Murawski book it seems that the Ho 229V3 had indeed a 1015 nosewheel tyre, but the Ho 229V2 drawing shows a smaller nosewheel than the V3. I estimate from the V2 drawing about 765 mm diameter, so maybe only the V2 (and V1 ?) used a He 177 tailwheel.

I don't recall ever reading about the suggestion that a B-24 wheel was used for the Ho 229, but B-24 nosewheels were used as nosewheels for the Ju 287 jet bomber prototype.

I have no period drawings for the V1 or V2 nosewheel, so it's possible that an He 177 tailwheel was used (although I would not regard any modern 3D render or diagram as a reliable historical source; neither may it be assumed that the artists were working from period sources). I would be very interested to know what the actual source of the He 177 tailwheel-as-a-nosewheel information is. It doesn't appear in the Wilkinson report nor in any of the wartime Gotha and Horten reports that I have. Perhaps Reimar or Walter mentioned it during their conversations with David Myhra?
The V3 and later examples were certainly intended to have a 1015 x 380 nosewheel. There doesn't seem to be any information anywhere on which specific company supplied the nosewheel tyre but it could easily have been Continental.

 

[edwest4]

The source for the He 177 tail wheel is the book Nurflügel by Reimar Horten amd Peter F. Selinger. The text is in German and English. It includes period drawings and photos. Excerpt:

"The nose wheel, for instance, came from the tail wheel of a He 177 heavy bomber. We were even able to use the strut and retract cylinder!" Page 134.

Care should be taken when reading this book since I noticed a few cases where the English translation was not faithful to the German text.

 

[Dagger]

I am aware that books or 3D renderings are not necessary correct, but that's all I have.
The Rys & Murawski book also has a separate folded 1:48 drawing of the V2 prototype which I overlooked earlier as it was in the back. Based on that drawing I estimate that the V2 nose wheel diameter was 785 mm.

The book Nurflügel by Reimar Horten and Peter Selinger I also have. Earlier today I had browsed through it but mainly checked the photo captions for reference to the nose wheel and did not notice the reference to the He 177 in the text. Ed cited the English summary; the original German text on page 141 I would translate as:
In Göttingen many planes arrived that were taken out of operation. So also the Me 210 whose tail wheel with fork and shock absorber was used as nose wheel for the 8-254 (H VII). Then series of Heinkel 177 arrived whose complete tail undercarriage fitted as nose wheel for the 8-229 thereby saving a lot of work. Even the retract cylinder and hydraulic parts could be used.

I don't have the Myhra Ho 229 books on the Ho 229. Too pricey for me. Does anybody here have them?

 

[Dagger]

The V3 and later examples were certainly intended to have a 1015 x 380 nosewheel. There doesn't seem to be any information anywhere on which specific company supplied the nosewheel tyre but it could easily have been Continental.

As I mentioned before, the Shepelev&Ottens book has a photo of the V3 nosewheel with (poorly readable) CONTINENTAL 1015 x 380 on the tyre. Can post it if anybody wants.

The main undercarriage wheels of the Do 335 were 1015 x 380 (except the first three prototypes) so it is likely that the Ho 229V3 nosewheel was from the same batch.

I found a photo of the Ho 229V2 nosewheel with AEROPLAN on its tyre but no size visible. Can post it if anybody wants.
Was in a book (Flying Wings of the Horten Brothers, by Hans-Peter Dabrowski) I completely forgot I had as it was separated from my other Horten books. I really need to reorganize my books as they are now in too many different cupboards in different rooms......

 

[edwest4]

I have The Horten Brothers and their All-Wing Aircraft by David Myhra, and published by Schiffer.

 

[Dagger]

AFAIK there are three books by David Myhra on the Horten flying wings:

» The Horten Brothers and Their All-Wing Aircraft

David Myhra: The Horten Brothers and Their All-Wing Aircraft

www.warbirdforum.com

You have the first book of the three which, if I understood the above reviews correctly, is mainly about the Horten brothers personal lives and their various flying wings. I suspect a big overlap with especially the Horten&Selinger book I already have. Could you post a Table Of Contents of your book?

I would be most interested in the third book, the Ho 229 Technical History, however I wonder how much material is in there that isn't already in my other Horten books. Paying 60 euros for maybe only 100 pages of info that is new to me is too pricey for my taste right now. Maybe later.

 

[hesham]

From Monogram Close-Up.

 

[Wingknut Redux]

I think I can at least cast some doubt on the debunking. ...
So although Horten wasn't necessarily telling the whole truth, I don't think he was really lying either.

Wow, Dan, that is extraordinary: what a great find. I confess that back when I was on this forum regularly, I was very sceptical (and embarassingly enough, quite vocally so) about the Horten stealth claims but clearly, there were indeed proposals aimed at giving 8-229 designs reduced radar cross-sections. I feel both very chastened and very grateful. Thanks and all best, 'The Artist Formerly Known as Wingknut'.

 

[newsdeskdan]

I think I can at least cast some doubt on the debunking. ...
So although Horten wasn't necessarily telling the whole truth, I don't think he was really lying either.

Wow, Dan, that is extraordinary: what a great find. I confess that back when I was on this forum regularly, I was very sceptical (and embarassingly enough, quite vocally so) about the Horten stealth claims but clearly, there were indeed proposals aimed at giving 8-229 designs reduced radar cross-sections. I feel both very chastened and very grateful. Thanks and all best, 'The Artist Formerly Known as Wingknut'.

I was very skeptical too. I even said so in print. But I was wrong, I think.

 

[KHambsch]

Ho-VII TL (Jet project)

Hi Justo, for the Schnell Kampfeugzeug...I've made measurements and am trying to determine the CG and CP of the aforementioned.
I've purchased your book as well as downloaded several of the drawings and illustrations on this page. Your book does not provide specifications for this particular bird. I'm coming up with ~ 43.5° for the wing sweep angle. Do you have any information that confirms or states what the swept angle is? Thank you for your time.
Kevin Hambsch

 

[Komet_82]

can anyone explain the logic behing this humungous nosewheel?

especially as rubber was a scarce material in ww2 germany

According to Marek Rys and Marek Murawsky on page 160 in their book Horten Ho 229 (Monographs Special Edition in 3 D) the Ho 229 nosewheel was the tailwheel of a Heinkel He 177 bomber, and during taxiing the nosewheel bore nearly half of the aircraft's weight.

From drawings in this book it is clear that the nosewheel was not rotated 90 degrees when retracted. When retracted it sat behind the cockpit.

From page 170 of the same book: the main landing gear wheels were from a Bf 109 G.

All three wheels were retracted hydraulically and lowered by gravity force.

I think they may be wrong about the He 177 tailwheel. According to Guenther Sengfelder in German Aircraft Landing Gear, the He 177 A-1 tailwheel was 780 x 260mm, with later models having an 875 x 320mm tailwheel. The nosewheel of the Ho 229 was 1015 x 380mm - see attached drawing from German undercarriage manufacturer Kroenprinz from August 1944. That's not to say that the tyre was bespoke - it may well have come from something else - but it probably wasn't an He 177 tailwheel.
It's also been suggested that the nosewheel came from the main gear of a B-24. But that was evidently 56in in diameter - which I think would make it too big.
The main landing gear wheels were from a Bf 109 (mark unspecified), as noted by Reimar Horten in his March 1, 1945, project description (see also attached). Evidently the plan for the series production model was to use the main wheels from an Me 262 instead.

Hello
I ended up here after some research on Kronprinz Wheels.
And I was surprised that you have Kronzprinz Drawings of the Ho 229, totaly amazing. Thanks for sharing this here.

One question, where did you find this drawing? I am looking for Kronprinz Tailwheel Drawings and Ersatzteilliste of the He 177 Tailwheel 8-3516 D-1. Do you know if there is something available?
Many thanks for your support
Best regards
Markus

 

[napobona]

Hi

I came across the following report. It finally explains where the prone Ho-X design sketch comes from:

Class number 629.13.014.48 (43) Horten
ROYAL AIRCRAFT ESTABLISHMENT, FARNBOROUGH
The Horten tailless aircraft
by
K.G. Wilkinson, B.Sc., D.I.O.
SUMMARY
R.A.E. Report No. F.A. 259/1
Toch. Note No. Aaro.1703
October, 1945
The sketch that we know


And what written about it:
3.12 Horten X
The H X wes a high speed arrow shaped flying wing (Fig. 20) inspired by Busemanns statement in 1936 of the beneficial effect of sweepback on delay of the shock stall. This apparently cheered up the Horten Brothers and gave them new proof that they were working on the right lines.

Initial work on the H X consisted of experiments with flying models of 10 ft. length weighing about 8-10 kg. From these they deduced the C.G. position needed for satisfactory flight with low aspect ratio and high sweepback, and found that they got good results with 4 dihedral and no fin area.

The next step was a man carrying glider model weighing 400 kg, with the overall dimensions of Fig. 25. The wing section was a symmetrical D.V.L. low drag type with maximum thickness at 45% 0. washout was 1.5°, dihedral 4°. Small Frise nose elevons were fitted but no flaps; a trimmed CL max of 0.8 was expected with a stalling incidence of 20° - 25°. Rudder control was to be by wing tip "trafficators.". The undercarriage was of tricycle layout giving zero ground incidence but clearance for a 150 nose up attitude at take-off; the front wheel was to be retractable but the rear wheels fixed.

Work on the glider H X was in progress at Hersfeld. When the writer visited the works on June 4th 1945 it was being used as an M.T. servicing depot and all aircraft components had been dumped in a basement. Only one wing rib and the main spar could be found. All drawings and calculations had gone.

Cheers
Kris