Historian takes critical look at Die Glocke

Jemiba

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Sarcastic is the correct wording, I think, though that video comes very diplomatically.
The believers, nevertheless, probably will feel vindicated, because it is confirmed by a
well known historian now, that there's no prove, that there wasn't anything like "Die Glocke".
All those "revolutionary" developments mentioned (jets, rockets, missiles, flying wings) were
already known before the war, and even in other countries, but not a technology, that could
overcome gravity. So, Germany would have had to make a tremendous scientific quantum leap
(that haven't been repeated until today !) in times, when the economy and scientific institutions
already may have been completely overstretched. But some people, and especially scientists,
need pressure to function really good ! (sarcasm modus off again) .
So, no reason for true believers to lose faith in that thing !
 

Flyaway

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I take the video as also throwing shade at the current state of The History channel. Do people remember when that channel was actually about history, not ancient aliens, looking for buried treasure and Hitler plus his magical weapons.
 

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I must admit I hadn't heard of this until recently, when I was sent a book to review - For the Good of All, by Ian J Ross. It is an alternative history/time travel novel - pure fiction which doesn't pretend to be anything else - in which Die Glocke features, and I found it thought-provoking and very well-written. My review of the book is on my blog here: https://sciencefictionfantasy.blogspot.com/2021/03/for-good-of-all-by-ian-j-ross.html
 

dannydale

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I take the video as also throwing shade at the current state of The History channel. Do people remember when that channel was actually about history, not ancient aliens, looking for buried treasure and Hitler plus his magical weapons.
What was done to the History channel is a microcosm of what American cable tv became.

The first commercial aired on tv already paid for set the stage for every other lie to follow, and they quickly ran thick, fast, and very deep. Now literally everything on tv is a complete lie.
 

Hood

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Meh, I've seen this guy's video on the mythical RAF Enstone Lancasters and was very unimpressed.

For those unware of this tale, supposedly, one day in 1943 six Lancasters in a glossy paint finish without any code markings and modified bomb bay doors (others say they were removed entirely) from a hush-hush unit turned up at RAF Enstone then in use as a satellite airfield by No 21 Operational Training Unit. They stayed for around 18 months and never interacted with the OTU. The OTU then used Wellingtons and a few Oxfords.
The only evidence comes from a 10-year old boy (Gordon Markham) living near the airfield at the time and one photograph perhaps taken by him.

Mark Felton believes this secret unit was training to drop A-bombs - in 1943....
The evidence for this claim? One highly classified secret document which he claims mentions RAF Enstone in connection with something to do with the Manhattan programme.
No unit history or evidence of the unit exists.

There is no evidence the aircraft had gloss paint, any brand-new factory fresh Lancaster on a rainy day would look glossy to a ten-year old boy. The photo shows a normal Lancaster paintjob and with normal open bomb-bay doors. Of course being a super hush-hush unit I'm sure the crews would pose for a local farmer or his son to take their photograph... (the photo can be seen here: https://web.archive.org/web/2008072...ippingnorton.net/Features/aviationhistory.htm)
Even if they were gloss black, why? It would add very little to the speed and we all know that gloss black is the opposite of anti-flash white...
Had anyone even thought about the paint to use with nuclear weapons in 1943? I think even the US didn't use anti-flash white until circa 1954-55?

Allegedly they were kept in a locked hangars at one end of the site - as others have pointed out, Enstone was a satellite field and only had a single B1 and a T2 hangar, both of which were on the technical site and certainly not on the 'far side' of the airfield as some accounts claim.

I know Bomber Command was foresighted about some things but training to drop A-Bombs in 1943 before even Los Alamos had designed them...
Why bomb-aimers would need to practice dropping a free-fall weapon with completely unknown aerodynamics and ballistics is another very pertinent question.
This begs the question of why the bomb bay doors were modified - no Fat Man or Little Boy existed so what would the dummy bomb be? How would they know what shape to make it? Why didn't anyone at Enstone see any bombs? was there even a bomb store at Enstone?

Let's not forget this is 1943 - the same year of the Dambusters Raid, where this particular bombing problem had taken some time to solve and in which the bomb-aimers had little time to prepare for their new low-level techniques or even knowing the target despite the target being specifically known to the command chain. The idea that the RAF would waste resources on training crews for an operation in 2 years time is laughable, Bomber Harris would have tossed you out of his Scampton office window for suggesting such a waste of his resources - he wanted to smash Germany flat and end the war by 1944.

Even finding enough special Lancasters for 617 Squadron was difficult and Harris wanted ever Lanc he could get to pound Germany. Would he really authorise bombers to spend 18 months stooging about without a weapon or even a dummy weapon to drop? (I could add his hatred of 'Panacea merchants', he might just have believed Barnes Wallis could make a mine skip, but a bomb splitting atoms...).

Presumably had the Lancs been modified, Avro would have done the work, of course a lot of Avros records were lost post-war so its possible the records went up in smoke in the fire.
I am no paint expert, presumably the RAF had a stock of gloss black paint?

They may be no smoke without fire, it may well be that they were connected to some kind of radar/radio countermeasures unit (to me this would be far more historically significant in terms of the overall bomber campaign at that time), but there is no link to the Atomic Weapons programme and really any kind of sensible analysis has to ask the kind of pertinent questions I have. The fact that as an historian that he can base an entire story on one photo of a Lanc, the memory of a farmer and perhaps one document in Kew somewhere mentioning Enstone is rather astonishing. I can only presume that the desire to find a good story for his YouTube audience took predence.
And that's the rub, one million viewers with thousands of comments like "wow this is real history, this is the greatest discovery ever, you should be on TV", show how everyone will accept anything that is on a YouTube video - so if he can make a myth like the Enstone Lancs come true how can he make a myth like the Die Glocke die?
 

Iron Felix

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In theory, the Germans could paint anything. There are several types of Wunderwaffe projects. 1. Projects that can be implemented, but which will cost a lot of money and which will have many problems ("Ratte" tank, H-44 battleship, etc.), 2. Projects that can be implemented, which can present significant difficulties, but which can find real application (guided anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, etc.), 3. Projects that are more theoretical in nature, but can someday be implemented, 4. Fantastic projects that cannot be implemented on the technical level of their time, and which actually do not differ from the technique in sci-fi. I also mentioned 5. Various quite understandable and common things that are often also considered "Wunderwaffe" (Sturmgewehr, Kampfpistole, anti-tank rocket launchers, MG-42). There is a whole layer of people who are sure that everything in the world was invented by the Nazis, and, as a rule, these people do not want to think with their own heads and do not want to read books about the history of technology. Of course, almost all projects - from groups 1, 3, 4 - are mistakenly referred to group 2. "Die Glocke" could theoretically exist in the form of a sketch, but nothing more. By that time, similar projects already existed, but no one would take seriously UFO from sci-fi between 1900 and 1940? Of course not. Here, it seems, some dude decided that "we are great Aryans, we can do anything, let's do anti-gravity".
I know at least three variants of "anti-gravity" engines:
- "Electric" motor, which creates a magnetic field, repelling from the magnetic field of the Earth (Russian writer Afanasiev, 1910s)
- "Electronic" engine emitting a stream of electrons (Austrian writer Ulinsky, 1920)
- Centrifugal engine, in fact - a large gyroscope
In the case of the nazi UFO, I have seen mentions of two engines:
- "Vortex engine", which is not clear how it works (obviously, on the WAAAGH force)
- Mercury engine, where a ball with a small amount of mercury rotates in a special installation, similar to a centrifuge for training astronauts
If I understand correctly, these last two engines are absolutely fantastic. But someone thinks that it could be really created.
I also heard stories about some guy from the USSR who made an anti-gravity platform using some strange "plates" (this crap looked like a wide short board and a T-shaped steering wheel), who told how he flew on it over the city but, of course, "all my photos were ruined"...
Now there is a "superunification theory", there are several attempts to create a "quantum engine", but this is possible only now. I do not believe that the nazi, who could ban entire fields of science just because Jews invented them, and who kicked engineers out into the streets just because they did not agree with Nazi ideology, would suddenly have modern technology and a modern understanding of quantum physics. I heard that German engineers were afraid to report on the possibility of creating nuclear weapons - because they understood that they would not have time to create them in time, and that they would be blamed for the defeat of Germany. In fact, the Third Reich was never really "technocratic" as it is imagined, they could create extremely unreliable missiles and jet fighters, they can do night vision devices and rocket launchers at the same time as the Americans and Russians, but in fact nothing more. Perhaps the few things Germany excelled at during WW2 were classic fighters, submarines, and artillery. But, many believe that they have possessed some kind of "ultra-modern" technical level, because of this, problems begin with the perception of reality. Hence the belief in the existence of "Die Glocke" in reality, and not just in the mind of some science fiction writer...
 

Justo Miranda

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Meh, I've seen this guy's video on the mythical RAF Enstone Lancasters and was very unimpressed.

For those unware of this tale, supposedly, one day in 1943 six Lancasters in a glossy paint finish without any code markings and modified bomb bay doors (others say they were removed entirely) from a hush-hush unit turned up at RAF Enstone then in use as a satellite airfield by No 21 Operational Training Unit. They stayed for around 18 months and never interacted with the OTU. The OTU then used Wellingtons and a few Oxfords.
The only evidence comes from a 10-year old boy (Gordon Markham) living near the airfield at the time and one photograph perhaps taken by him.

Mark Felton believes this secret unit was training to drop A-bombs - in 1943....
The evidence for this claim? One highly classified secret document which he claims mentions RAF Enstone in connection with something to do with the Manhattan programme.
No unit history or evidence of the unit exists.

There is no evidence the aircraft had gloss paint, any brand-new factory fresh Lancaster on a rainy day would look glossy to a ten-year old boy. The photo shows a normal Lancaster paintjob and with normal open bomb-bay doors. Of course being a super hush-hush unit I'm sure the crews would pose for a local farmer or his son to take their photograph... (the photo can be seen here: https://web.archive.org/web/2008072...ippingnorton.net/Features/aviationhistory.htm)
Even if they were gloss black, why? It would add very little to the speed and we all know that gloss black is the opposite of anti-flash white...
Had anyone even thought about the paint to use with nuclear weapons in 1943? I think even the US didn't use anti-flash white until circa 1954-55?

Allegedly they were kept in a locked hangars at one end of the site - as others have pointed out, Enstone was a satellite field and only had a single B1 and a T2 hangar, both of which were on the technical site and certainly not on the 'far side' of the airfield as some accounts claim.

I know Bomber Command was foresighted about some things but training to drop A-Bombs in 1943 before even Los Alamos had designed them...
Why bomb-aimers would need to practice dropping a free-fall weapon with completely unknown aerodynamics and ballistics is another very pertinent question.
This begs the question of why the bomb bay doors were modified - no Fat Man or Little Boy existed so what would the dummy bomb be? How would they know what shape to make it? Why didn't anyone at Enstone see any bombs? was there even a bomb store at Enstone?

Let's not forget this is 1943 - the same year of the Dambusters Raid, where this particular bombing problem had taken some time to solve and in which the bomb-aimers had little time to prepare for their new low-level techniques or even knowing the target despite the target being specifically known to the command chain. The idea that the RAF would waste resources on training crews for an operation in 2 years time is laughable, Bomber Harris would have tossed you out of his Scampton office window for suggesting such a waste of his resources - he wanted to smash Germany flat and end the war by 1944.

Even finding enough special Lancasters for 617 Squadron was difficult and Harris wanted ever Lanc he could get to pound Germany. Would he really authorise bombers to spend 18 months stooging about without a weapon or even a dummy weapon to drop? (I could add his hatred of 'Panacea merchants', he might just have believed Barnes Wallis could make a mine skip, but a bomb splitting atoms...).

Presumably had the Lancs been modified, Avro would have done the work, of course a lot of Avros records were lost post-war so its possible the records went up in smoke in the fire.
I am no paint expert, presumably the RAF had a stock of gloss black paint?

They may be no smoke without fire, it may well be that they were connected to some kind of radar/radio countermeasures unit (to me this would be far more historically significant in terms of the overall bomber campaign at that time), but there is no link to the Atomic Weapons programme and really any kind of sensible analysis has to ask the kind of pertinent questions I have. The fact that as an historian that he can base an entire story on one photo of a Lanc, the memory of a farmer and perhaps one document in Kew somewhere mentioning Enstone is rather astonishing. I can only presume that the desire to find a good story for his YouTube audience took predence.
And that's the rub, one million viewers with thousands of comments like "wow this is real history, this is the greatest discovery ever, you should be on TV", show how everyone will accept anything that is on a YouTube video - so if he can make a myth like the Enstone Lancs come true how can he make a myth like the Die Glocke die?
That story is very good, very good, thank you for sharing it.
 

Justo Miranda

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I think I can provide some additional information about the Nazi Vortex generators, please see attached stuff.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Here is some information about the centrifugal engine



In 1939, the Heinkel-Rostock team was working on the development of the HeS 8 centrifugal turbojet, which was expected to be used to propel the He 280 fighters. With a projected thrust of 700 kp and a diameter 20 per cent shorter than the HeS 3, the new turbojet required a great research effort and an extensive test program. Numerous technical problems had to be solved before starting its large-scale production and the HeS 8 suffered numerous delays. By March 1941 it only produced 500 kp static thrust, 550 kp by early 1942 and 600 kp in early 1943.

The root cause was the reduction of the diameter, recommended by the aerodynamicists to minimize the drag produced by the engine nacelles when installed under the wings of the He 280 jet fighter. Trials experience revealed that the most effective way to increase thrust in this type of turbojets was to also increase their diameter, to improve the performance of the centrifugal compressor. In 1939, the HeS 3B, with 93 cm of diameter, produced 450 kp. In May 1941, the British Power Jets W.1, with 107 cm in diameter, produced 387 kp and in 1943, the De Havilland Halford H.1, with 127 cm in diameter, produced 1,225 kp static thrust.

In the spring of 1943, the OKL decided to cancel all research work with centrifugal turbojets to focus on the development of the axial-flow type engines Jumo 004 and BMW 003, but the BMW-Bramo research department headed by Dipl. Ing. Kurt Löhner, continued to work secretly on a radial-flow horizontal turbojet concept, with large diameter, based on the BMW P.3303 project and in the FKFS multi-stage centrifugal compressor. The rotor blades were mounted horizontally on the inner disc ring and the compressor stators are mounted horizontally on the outer disc ring. The combustion system consisted of several combustion chambers with individual burners and nozzle guide vanes distributed in a radial pattern.

Development of the radial-flow turbojet progressed slowly as the compressor blades and the thrust nozzles operated at 1,800ºF (980ºC) under high stress.

The new engine was designed as an integral part of a disc shaped airframe with the diffuser, combustion chambers and exhaust nozzles mounted between the radial ribs of the aircraft.

In March 1943, the project was seized by the SS and transferred to Breslau-Lower Silesian where a group of technicians headed by Dr. Heinrich Richard Miethe was already working in the construction of the aerodyne designed by Henri Coanda: a multi-engine research vehicle for investigating stability and controls.

The project grew exponentially during 1944, under the codename Kugelblitz, with underground facilities in Leubus, Feuerstenstein, Ludwigsdorf and the Riese complex of Wenceslas Mine, using components manufactured by Bosch, Siemens, Zeiss, and AEG under SS control.

The propulsion system of the Coanda Aerodyne consisted in twelve Junkers Jumo 004 turbojets, but those engines were unavailable at the time. Fortunately for the project the production of the BMW 003A turbojet started at Zühlsdorf in October 1944 and some units were supplied to Breslau assembly plant under auspices of Hans Kammler.

According to Miethe, the 21 m of diameter prototype was completed on December 20, 1944 following twenty months of development, but the mediocre results obtained during the flying tests of the Avrocar VZ-6 in October 1959 suggest that the Coanda prototype could have not lifted to more than 6 feet. The concept of jet exhaust being heavily multiplied by Coanda effect was possible in theory but did not work out in practice.

The jet engines were taken by the Soviet troops from Breslau in May 1945 and many of the experts who had worked on the project died or were captured.

According to different sources the prototype was only a 50 per cent scaled down flying mock-up of the radial flow powered Kugelblitz with 42 m of diameter and Luftschwamm upper surfaces, but in my opinion the whole project would have been cancelled early 1945 after the flying tests failure of the aerodyne.

All drawings and documents were destroyed at Breslau and Bad-Gandersheim by the SS Special Evacuation Kommando during the siege of Breslau from February 13 to May 6, 1945.

A disc shaped vertical take-off vehicle is feasible nowadays, but it is going to be awfully expensive and extremely hard to control. The Coanda effect works quite well at low speeds but it is totally unworkable at high speeds because the air flow separation phenomena.
 

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archipeppe

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I bet my two cents: would it be the Bell a sort of super giant magnetron?

It would make a sense in the late Reich obsession with Allied bomb runs over their biggest town, especially if we consider the Goering's behaviour about it.

Turning foot to the ground no nazi-ufo or flying disc, forget any silly time machine or other Sci-Fi crazyness, only a big radar device.
 

Justo Miranda

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When John Frost tried to build a radial-flow turbojet the main difficulty was the design of roller bearing support, but the use of compressed air was not effective and the project was cancelled, there are some references to the use of liquid roller bearings in German jet engines... maybe they used Mercury?



In October 1945 John Frost, the project engineer of the D.H. 108, decided to use the German technology of the Messerschmitt Me 163 swept wing fighter with the cooperation of several German technicians. One of them was Dr. Waldemar Voight, chef designer of Messserschmitt-Oberammergau AG.

Frost also had access to the information on tip jet-driven rotor helicopters, radial flow gas turbines and the Flügelrad propulsion concept that had been captured in Europe by the British Intelligence Objectives Sub-committee (B.I.O.S.). The development of the powerful BMW-Bramo radial-flow turbojet was continued at the British National Gas Turbine establishment.

In 1947 Frost joined A.V. Roe Canada Company, as project designer of the Avro XC-100 all-weather fighter, only ten days before Kenneth Arnold’s UFO encounter.

Fascinated by reports of UFO sightings, Frost concluded that the German technology could be used to build a flying disc. Privately and with a group of friends, he started the design of the tip jet-driven rotor Gyrodyne based in the Feuerball concept and a disc-shaped aircraft powered by an integral pancake radial-flow turbojet based in the Kugelblitz concept.

Researcher Tim Mattews states in the book 'UFO revelation' that in 1951 A.V. Roe employed several German scientists including the chief designer of the Kugelblitz project, Dr. Heinrich Richard Miethe.

Late in 1951 Frost made a proposal for a proof-of-concept saucer-like flying vehicle. Early in 1952 the A.V. Roe Special Projects Group was formed to investigate the Frost ideas.

In March 1953 Frost met with the wartime German engineer George Klein, who had taken part in the development of the Flügelrad Projekt. The reunion took place at a Canadian Government Facility in West Germany.

On August 23, 1953 Frost patented the Air Cushion Effect and in June 1954 published the report “Project Y-2: Flat Vertical Take-off Gyroplane” a proof-of-concept vehicle named Project P.724.

The Y-2 was a true flying saucer design powered by one radial flow gas turbine which utilizes compressor air bleed as its only means of lubrication.

Their VTOL capability was achieved by ducting engine exhaust to the periphery of the disc and deflecting the air flow downwards by means of the Coanda Effect. For transition to forward flight, the air flow would be gradually redistributed backwards by means of trim flaps.

The proposed Avro Y-2 Project P.724 (Patent April 18, 1955) had 44 ft. (13.4 m) of diameter and 5.9 ft. (1.8 m) of height. A new proposed version (Patent May 9, 1955) with 49 ft. (14.97 m) of diameter and 6.9 ft. (2 m) height, was powered by eight radially mounted Armstrong-Siddeley ASM Viper 5 axial-flow turbojets with 1,900 lbs. thrust each.



On April 2, 1955, the USAF signed Avro contract Nº AF33 (600) 30161 for the Project 1794. The contract specified analytical investigations to determine the performance capabilities of a flat VTOL all-wing aircraft of circular planform employing jet control. The areas for analysis were defined as:

Air Cushion Effect

Stability of multi-engine configuration

Air intake and gas exhaust system test

Aircraft performance, stability, and control

Radial-flow engine feasibility



Aerodynamic tests with 1/6 and 1/40 scale models were conducted at Wright-Patterson and M.I.T. wind tunnel facilities. Tests of speed, transition control, pitch control, jet thrust, intake flow, ground position and angle of attack were completed on June 14, 1956.

An attempt was made to theoretically calculate the Ground Effect, but theory does not explain observations sufficiently accurately and no tests of radial-flow engine feasibility have been carried at the end of the program.

A low-speed research vehicle was proposed to investigate stability, control systems and Air Cushion Effect, before development of a supersonic operational aircraft.

This planned prototype had 21 ft 6 in (6.55 m) of diameter, 4 ft (1.2 m) height and was powered by eight radially mounted Armstrong-Siddeley Viper A.S.V. 8 turbojets, with 4,188 lbs. thrust each, radial diffuser ducts and Coanda peripheral ring.

The final development aircraft had a turbo-ramjet propulsion system with one Lundström compressor/turbine powered by three Viper A.S.V. 5 turbojets, a single-stage axial impeller and 144 flame tubes. The planned aircraft had 35.3 ft (10.75 m) of diameter, 5.35 ft (1.63 m) height, Mach 3.0 top speed and 94,000 ft ceiling.

On November 4, 1955, Avro Canada proposed the PV.704 project to develop the radial-flow engine to eliminate any delays in the development of the Project 1794 propulsion system.

In the PV.704 power plant the incoming air sucked through the upper and lower intakes was fed into the hollow cylinder of Lundström turbo-rotor, pressurized by means of the four-stage upper and lower impellers and directed towards the peripheral air intakes of six radially mounted Viper A.S.V. 8 turbojets. Partial flow of compressed air proceeds radially to 24 peripheral combustion chambers and finally expelled through 96 flight control shutters.

The turbojets were used as gas generators, their exhaust gases proceeded radially inwards, ducted to the central turbine ring by means of six exhaust diffusers and were finally expelled through a central exhaust on the under surface of the aircraft.

In October 1956, the design was tested in a six Viper test rig, early in 1957 the Lundström turbine/compressor combination (with 8.5 ft of diameter and 10,450 pounds max weight) was sent to Burbank California.

During test-rig trials the turbine blew so hot (1,750º K) it melted the steel structure and its violent shaking would pop the rivets, causing three fires, hazardous oil leaks and nearly a catastrophic incident occurred with a Viper turbojet running out of control. Noise and vibrations made the prospects of a manned vehicle frightening. The Lundström compressor produced a dangerous sonic boom at the point that observers were afraid of the machine.

The wind tunnel tests suggested that the GETOL configuration had severe stability problems and the craft was in constant danger of flipping over during take-off. The circular wing was displaying none of the theoretical advantages and a lot of practical shortcomings.

The WS-606A configurations were simply too advanced and the technical challenges too great: a dead-end project with insurmountable problems of overheating, ball-bearing over-speed, and gyroscopic effect. By March 1958, USAF recommended that all work on the GETOL concept and their radial-flow turbine should be halted. There is no evidence that anyone has engineered an example of radial-flow turbo-disc engine.
 

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nuuumannn

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Meh, I've seen this guy's video on the mythical RAF Enstone Lancasters and was very unimpressed.

This story appeared in an entry on RAF Enstone in one of the Action Stations books from the 80s, if memory serves and Felton's clip is mentioned on the wiki page for Enstone, too. His video on the use of the Lancaster as an atomic bomber has a few inaccuracies surrounding the Manhattan Project and the development of the atomic bomb, notably in that he doesn't mention the Thin Man bomb at all, which is what Dr Norman Ramsay, working with Deak Parsons on developing the bomb was referring to when he wrote the report in 1943 where he names the Lancaster as the only type capable of carrying the 17-foot long weapon internally.

The idea of using the Lancaster to carry the Thin Man was discussed however; Ramsay did meet Roy Chadwick in Canada while he was setting up Lancaster production there. Ramsay showed Chadwick bomb shapes and enquired whether the Lancaster was capable of carrying them internally, to which Chadwick replied that it was, but nothing more came of that, and Chadwick was certainly not told that they were atomic weapons at the time. It was Hap Arnold who put the kybosh on the Lancaster being used, even for trials, as he definitely wanted a USAAF aircraft and crew, naming the B-29 as the bomb carrier, even though it was going through engine issues at the time and had to be modified to carry the Thin Man internally.

I noticed from the clip above that he also makes the claim that the Horten brothers went to the States and helped develop flying wings, showing the B-2, but Northrop had been building flying wings for years, before the end of WW2. Reimar was interrogated in Britain post-war and a lot of his research ended up there, too, after which he went to Argentina and built flying wings.
 

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Tomasz Witkowski is convinced.
 

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