Gun ports in Infantry Fighting Vehicles

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The BMP and Marder both had gun ports for their infantry. The US even developed a special rifle to use the gun ports in the early M2/3 Bradleys. (Was the M3 ever called a Devers?). The Brits were late to the party with Warrior which did not have gun ports.
Uparmouring the first three saw the gun ports disappear. Were the Brits right? or did the gun ports have some value?
 

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The BMP and Marder both had gun ports for their infantry. The US even developed a special rifle to use the gun ports in the early M2/3 Bradleys. (Was the M3 ever called a Devers?). The Brits were late to the party with Warrior which did not have gun ports.
Uparmouring the first three saw the gun ports disappear. Were the Brits right? or did the gun ports have some value?
The British concept was that the APC (whether an FV432 or a Warrior) was simply a bus and not to be fought from -although the 432 had a large roof hatch. The wheeled Saracen APC, however, did have gun ports as well as a roof hatch -and an MG turret.

SRJ.
 
Even when the Bradleys did have gunports, the port-firing weapons usually stayed in the arms room. They were singularly ineffective weapons. Ultra-high ROF, no actual sights (just hopefully mags full of tracer), and crummy vision blocks made them pretty much useless..
 
I suspect that firing port weapons (submachine guns or shortened assault rifles) would have done little damage to enemy infantry. Far wiser to use the turret-mounted MGs or auto-cannons
OTOH more vision ports help with situational awareness when bored mounted infantry are just sitting around and they definitely help infantry with situational awareness just before you drop the ramp.
 
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Both South African Ratels and Casspirs had viewing and gun ports - the units using the Casspirs used them very effectively - however they were mostly involved in follow up tactics against terrorists on foot, so that's maybe not the best reference to modern day warfare...
 

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Yes, I think as others have said here, aiming was very difficult/impossible via a periscope while you were being bounced around inside. Just spraying lead around wasn't really effective. Plus fumes were a problem, I think the Bradley had extractor tubes, and of course you needed relatively compact gun.
Another factor may have been that you really needed back-to-back seating rather than facing seats which may have been a constraint on the vehicle designer.

Perhaps the Soviets came to the same conclusion when they started to shift to having machine guns and grenade launchers mounted in the bows for ahead fire.
 
The thought of hot brass bouncing around inside the troop compartment is unpleasant and brings to mind the spalling they had to contend with in WW1 armoured units. Not nice if you get that in the face.
 
An alternative invented far later is the dismount-operated remotely controlled gun station. My phone doesn't have the relevant pictures but one illustration of the Abrams SAIFV (the one with the Bradley turret) and the IFV variant of tbe Obj.299 tank has it, essentially tiny manned, low-profile cupolas with MGs and periscopic sights. Its modern incarnation exists in the form of rear-mounted RWSs on the VN20 HIFV.

Gun ports are obsolete with the introduction of commander-operated weapon stations on 2-man turreted IFVs. In hindsight whether having them or not matters little as future vehicle uparmour wouldve gotten rid of them anyway.

As for used catridges into the infantry compartment, forward-ejecting rifles would have been a great help.
 
The thought of hot brass bouncing around inside the troop compartment is unpleasant and brings to mind the spalling they had to contend with in WW1 armoured units. Not nice if you get that in the face.
Brass-catching bags can eliminate that problem.
 
Yes, I think as others have said here, aiming was very difficult/impossible via a periscope while you were being bounced around inside. Just spraying lead around wasn't really effective. Plus fumes were a problem, I think the Bradley had extractor tubes, and of course you needed relatively compact gun.
Another factor may have been that you really needed back-to-back seating rather than facing seats which may have been a constraint on the vehicle designer.

Perhaps the Soviets came to the same conclusion when they started to shift to having machine guns and grenade launchers mounted in the bows for ahead fire.

I think the Object 299 IFV lacked rifle firing ports but had remotely operated ones, similar to Marder, mounting AGS and PKT.

BMP-3 has a pair of firing ports for PKM and AK. They are covered by a hinged armor plate externally in the first picture, they're the Tetris looking bits under the turret and crew hatch on the aft. There is one on the starboard side where the fore port..port is. The K-25 lacks firing ports on the hull, but this is probably because its armor is part of the flotation scheme, rather than by choice, since Bumerang also has a firing port on the aft ramp.

They're useful, but amphibious capability and armor protection are more important, rather than firing ports being useless.

Even when the Bradleys did have gunports, the port-firing weapons usually stayed in the arms room. They were singularly ineffective weapons. Ultra-high ROF, no actual sights (just hopefully mags full of tracer), and crummy vision blocks made them pretty much useless..

Bradley's, uh, "unique" human factors combined with FPW's oddities probably play a part in this more than firing ports writ large.

An ODS type seating arrangement, but with outwards facing seats, equally placed firing ports instead of haphazardly placed around the vehicle, and better aligned vision blocks, could all go a long way to making them useful. A firing rate reducer bringing the FPW down to 350-450 RPM and a brass catching bag would also help. Perhaps a 60-round casket-type magazine too, but that would be a bit futuristic for 1980.

People have used firing ports successfully in action (or rather, infantry firing from moving vehicles in an assault), see: Panzergrenadiers in Opel 4x4 trucks in the Great Patriotic War, without much issue. At least if R.E. Simpkin's recollections in his books are anything to go by, at least, as he was quite enamored with them. The firing port problems of the Bradley seems to be that specific implementation rather than the concept itself.
 

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Even when the Bradleys did have gunports, the port-firing weapons usually stayed in the arms room. They were singularly ineffective weapons. Ultra-high ROF, no actual sights (just hopefully mags full of tracer), and crummy vision blocks made them pretty much useless..
I thought the M231 FPWs were kept stored in the vehicles but they were definitely considered pretty useless. Colt had tested a buffer or something that reduced the rate of fire to about that of the old M3 Grease Gun but for some reason it wasn't included on the production model which could empty a whole 30 round magazine in under 2 seconds. The magazines were loaded with tracers but that doesn't do any good if you can't walk them on target before the magazine is empty.

The M3A1 deleted the side firing ports because apparently the cavalry guys didn't want them and eventually the up-armored M2A2 did away with them too in favor of more armor. The doors still have the ports though. No idea if the ones today still carry M231s for those door ports today but during the Iraq War sometimes they were used by vehicle crewmen that didn't have M4 carbines.

One interesting thing the Germans had on early Marder 1 models and some IFV prototypes was a remotely operated MG3 in its own sort of turret above the infantry compartment. I've read that the Germans were initially very enthusiastic about the idea of mounted assaults and I imagine some of that was input from WWII Panzergrenadier veterans. At some point they must have realized it simply wasn't all that viable considering the generous amount of hand-held AT weapons the Soviets had.

MarderA1.jpg

The Soviets themselves made every provision for firing ports but to my knowledge their doctrine was to always have the infantry dismount 500 meters from the objective or so. The BMP-3 has those two front ports for PK series machine guns but I don't know if those are intended to be kept there like a bow machine gun on a WWII tank or if it is intended for the infantry to take those guns with them
 
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The Roshel Senator, that has just reached 1,000 for Ukraine, has 'pistol ports' on the doors. Not sure of the main compartment though.
 
Has anyone else read 'Battlegroup' by Jim Storr?

It put a MICV hole right through the idea of the MICV, though form what i've read its not the only study that does that.
 
The original reason for firing port weapons was to let your grunts cruise around in CBRN-sealed and overpressured vehicles on nasty battlefields covered in chemical and biological weapons and nuclear fallout.

Today, a grunt-operated RWS on the back deck is probably more effective.
 
The original reason for firing port weapons was to let your grunts cruise around in CBRN-sealed and overpressured vehicles on nasty battlefields covered in chemical and biological weapons and nuclear fallout.

Today, a grunt-operated RWS on the back deck is probably more effective.
Yes.
During WW2 something like 40 percent of Canadian infantry casualties were caused by plunging fire from German mortars and artillery. Air burst or tree burst were the worst.
But even into the 1950s, the Canadian Army was still removing turrets - from old Shermans - to make open-topped “Kangaroo” APCs.
This did not change until circa 1960s when generals decided that it was important for infantry to be able to move around battlefields contaminated with biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. Only then did they introduce roofed APCs (M113) that could be sealed filtered air was forced (over pressure) to provide clean reaching air.
 
The original reason for firing port weapons was to let your grunts cruise around in CBRN-sealed and overpressured vehicles on nasty battlefields covered in chemical and biological weapons and nuclear fallout.

Today, a grunt-operated RWS on the back deck is probably more effective.

Yeah this is true.

Before we invented the word "RWS" people still used "firing port" to describe both types of under-armor shooting provision though. Or at least I've seen Marder 1's remote station described as a "MG3 firing port" a few times. The Germans have some loopy 40mm grenade launchers on the back of the SPz Puma nowadays.

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Yeah this is true.

Before we invented the word "RWS" people still used "firing port" to describe both types of under-armor shooting provision though. Or at least I've seen Marder 1's remote station described as a "MG3 firing port" a few times. The Germans have some loopy 40mm grenade launchers on the back of the SPz Puma nowadays.

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directed 40mm smoke, you think? or are they loading frag rounds in there?
 

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