German WWII Atomic Bombs

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edwest2

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In my research regarding this question, there are many records from the OSS and the Counter-Intelligence Corps. This latter group was responsible for locating certain individuals. Only recently have a few members of the OSS been able to speak about some of their work. And what was the secrecy about? A few people assassinated? A few buildings blown up? A few jet aircraft? Certainly not the V-1 and V-2.

In the United States, an interrogation center was set up during the war. Germans of interest were brought there. A place identified only as P.O. Box 1142. The following article refers to one individual who was involved with "enriching uranium."


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93649575


More information continues to appear.


Ed
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I'm sorry, and this is my personal opinion only, but from what I can see this kind of research assumes a fact (The Nazis had a workable nuclear bomb project, the Nazis invented anti-gravity etc) and then attempts to amass "evidence" to support it. ALL contrary evidence is discounted out of hand, as it would invalidate the central premise. Any evidence supporting the premise is automatically valid, no matter its credibility.

Regarding your provided links, how exactly does the fact that a "German scientist" was working on uranium enrichment mean anything? Noone has ever denied that German scientists were working on uranium enrichment, they just didn't far enough. In fact one of the main objectives of Alsos was to locate and secure German stocks of enriched uranium.

How does

"A new edition of "Forschungsberichte" was planned containing articles on successful pile experiments. Five articles in all were contemplated, and Gerlach wrote an introductory summary"

tell us ANYTHING? "Success" judged how? Was Gerlach telling the truth? If the articles were only "planned", where is the proof that the "successful" experiments had even taken place by the end of the war. All we know from this line is that one interviewed person claimed to have written an introduction to a series of articles he was planning to write in the future.

If Germany had a workable plan for making a bomb, why could the Alsos mission find no trace of it? Alsos concluded that no critical mass was attained in any WW2 German pile experiments, after conducting lots of face-to-face interviews, including the report you are quoting from, and ACTUALLY BEING THERE at the time.

Good research is not the fine-combing of piles of material for some hidden "smoking gun" that confirms your theory. Its coming to an objective conclusion based on a consideration of all the evidence, not just the ones that fit a researcher's pet theory. Therefore feel free to bring forward the evidence for these claims, and we will consider them.

I can't promise to believe the conclusions however.
 

zen

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I've said this once, I'll say it again, no reflector means no reactor. Even if they had got it running (with a reflector) there was no control rods and no proceedure to stopping the reaction, it would run away and kill a lot of people.
 

Barrington Bond

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The article does not bode well when it starts off having to correct itself saying that Wernher Von Braun was not captured on a U-Boat as it at first claimed!

Also having just finished "The Rocket Team" it makes no mention of Von Braun ever having been at Fort Hunt (also he couldn't have been buying lingerie in a Jewish apartment store for his wife as he wasn't married!). The only mention of Fort Hunt was that some POW German Naval officers were borrowed to help sort and translate documents from the German rocket programmes as the American Army personnel originally supposed to do it didn't have enough knowledge of german technical/scientific language.

Regards,
Barry
 

r16

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as being someone dealing with murky and unsupported and practically never heard before stuff so secretive that many people in my town believe ı am making them up , ı think ı have a right to say that the general feeling against a German bomb is totally valid . Uncovering the truth is a worthwhile goal ı agree but truth is that there was no German bomb and even if there was what would it change ? There are many people interested in history , they are -let's say- excited by weapons , ı know as ı am one , they are continiously surprised by German work in WW2 period but the very premise of total German superiority in research is merely an a ploy by actual Nazis. Germans were undeniably ahead in many fields but not to the extent that they could do a bomb out of thin air or make a saucer , two things yet to be realised by the other nations of this planet . But back in times when hippies reigned it was fashionable to portray aliens as peaceful , love made the things go around and having achieved success in interplanetary flight would prove those good old bunch of Nazis were actually good hearted , warm , innocent people , worthy of reconsideration for running the world when they got together a few divisions . That is why people of today who think it was probable for Germans to do such stuff get labelled a Nazi sooner or later . And it is a shame to be insulted for mere wondering when the person in question might be more than willing to oppose Nazis if there were any around . Is it worth the candle for fighting a German bomb that didn't exist ? Forum members who disagree on the premise do it because they don't have the evidence , ı am merely adding a small contribution .
 

r16

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we have a local saying in Turkey on "talking about the people outside of the room" and as ı was saying ı was just making a small contribution to the discussion . More of the same at

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5645.0.html as it can be justified as ı was somewhat diluting the thread with some personal views .

ı had prepared at home and the wording might sound somewhat odd as it is not a reply of any kind to the fully appropriate remark he has made ...
 
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Kiwiguy

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I think if you bother to research the real facts you'll find that Nazi Germany did not have any H-bomb project. It did have two A-bomb projects. One involved a Plutonium bomb concept in a project connected with Fritz Houtermanns and a Uranium A-bomb project connected with Kurt Diebner.

Paul Harteck developed the Uranium centrifuge from a concept invented by Erich Bagge in 1942. These Uranium centrifuges permitted the creation of enriched Uranium without the need for heavy water reactors required to make Plutonium.
 

Lauge

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Kiwiguy said:
I think if you bother to research the real facts......

OK, where ? As in, what are the sources for these rather definitive statements ?

Regards, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark
 
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Kiwiguy

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OK, where ? As in, what are the sources for these rather definitive statements ?

Happy to oblige Lauge. Glad to come across someone willing to do some real reading and research...

I could suggest you read a whole library of books but best you start with just four or five.

Firstly there was no Nazi H-bomb. Some seem to confused by the use of Plutonium in H-bombs to suggest that the Nazis had an H-bomb. I have never found any such evidence or suggestions.
To create an H-bomb you first need to create a Plutonium A-bomb and the Nazis were never close to producing sufficient Plutonium. To do so would require three years of fission in a Heavy water reactor with precisely correct ratios of U235 and U238. If you get these ratios wrong you simply produce useless Plutonium 240 which is why North Korea failed to create it’s own A-bomb recently.

After three years of fission the Nazis then would have required two years to cool the spent fuel rods, before chemical separation of Plutonium from other radionuclides. The Nazis for one thing lacked the time to harvest Plutonium even had they built a working heavy water reactor.
They were however a lot nearer to producing a Uranium A-bomb from centrifuge enriched bomb grade Uranium and this is the untold story of WW2.

With the interest of the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Office), or HWA, Riehl, and his colleague Günter Wirths, set up an industrial-scale production of high-purity uranium oxide at the Auergesellschaft plant in Oranienburg. Adding to the capabilities in the final stages of metallic uranium production were the strength’s of the Degussa corporation’s capabilities in metals production.

The Auer Oranienburg plant provided the uranium sheets and cubes for the Uranmaschine (uranium machine, i.e., nuclear reactor) experiments conducted at the Kaiser-Wilhelm Gesellschaft’s Institut für Physik (KWIP, Kaiser Wilhelm Institute of Physics) and the Versuchsstelle (testing station) of the Heereswaffenamt (Army Ordnance Office) in Gottow, under the German nuclear energy project Uranverein.

The G-1 experiment performed at the HWA testing station, under the direction of Kurt Diebner, had lattices of 6,800 uranium oxide cubes (about 25 tons), in the nuclear moderator paraffin.

If you read David Irving’s meticulously researched book “The Virus House” you will discover that Dr Erich Bagge had invented and demonstrated a gaseous uranium centrifuge at Kiel Unavernin in 1942. During 1943 Dr Paul Harteck was tasked with creating a Uranium Enrichment laboratory in Hamburg to develop the so called Harteck process. This laboratory was destroyed by days of Allied bombing in July 1943.

A new HWA enrichment laboratory was created at Kummersdorf and a production facility at Freiberg code named Volmer’s Furniture factory. Degaussa received a contract from the Nazi Government for industrial scale production of uranium centrifuges which was ten times greater than the entire budget for Hiesenberg’s nuclear research at Kaiser Wilhelm Gesellschaft “KWA”. This Freiberg plant was destroyed by Allied bombing.

The new HWA uranium enrichment laboratory was shifted to Austria, code named Angora Farm. From July 1944 the SS took over Harteck’s work and shifted the centrifuges to an underground mine complex in Czechoslovakia. Ironically the uranium itself was being mined in Czechoslovakia at Jac-y-mov.

The ore was sent from Jac-y-mov to Oranienberg for refining to un-enriched yellow cake Uranium oxide. If sceptics think that Nazi germany had no significant Uranium reserves then perhaps they should explain why there was any need to bomb Oranienberg at the end of the war ?

Work of the American Operation ALSOS teams, in November 1944, uncovered leads which took them to a company in Paris that handled rare earths and had been taken over by the Auergesellschaft. This, combined with information gathered in the same month through an Alsos team in Strasbourg, confirmed that the Auergesellschaft Oranienburg plant was involved in the production of uranium and thorium metals.

Since the Oranienberg plant was to be in the future Soviet zone of occupation and the Russian troops would get there before the Allies, General Leslie Groves, commander of the Manhattan Project, recommended to General George Marshall that the plant be destroyed by aerial bombardment, in order to deny its uranium production equipment to the Russians. On 15 March 1945, 612 B-17 Flying Fortress bombers of the Eighth Air Force dropped 1,506 tons of high-explosive and 178 tons of incendiary bombs on the plant.

Nikolaus Riehl visited the site with the Russians and said that the facility was mostly destroyed. Riehl also recalled long after the war that the Russians knew precisely why the Americans had bombed the facility – the attack had been directed at them rather than the Germans.

When a Soviet search team arrived at the Auergesellschaft facility in Oranienburg, they had, however, found nearly 100 tons of fairly pure uranium oxide. The Soviet Union took this uranium as reparations, which amounted to between 25% and 40% of the uranium taken from Germany and Czechoslovakia at the end of the war. Khariton said the uranium found there saved the Soviet Union a year on its atomic bomb project

These are some sources to corroborate what I say:

Pavel V. Oleynikov, author of German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Project, The Nonproliferation Review Volume 7, Number 2, pages 1 – 30 , published 2000. See page 9. Oleynikov has been a group leader at the Institute of Technical Physics of the Russian Federal Nuclear Center in Snezhinsk (Chelyabinsk-70).

Nikolaus Riehl and Frederick Seitz who co-authored “Stalin’s Captive: Nikolaus Riehl and the Soviet Race for the Bomb” (American Chemical Society and the Chemical Heritage Foundations, published 1996) ISBN 0-8412-3310-1

Norman M. Naimark, “The Russians in Germany: A History of the Soviet Zone of Occupation, 1945-1949” (Belknap, published 1995) see page 236.

David Holloway, “Stalin and the Bomb: The Soviet Union and Atomic Energy 1939–1956” (Yale, published 1994) ISBN 0-300-06056-4, see page 111
 

flateric

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Kiwiguy said:
When a Soviet search team arrived at the Auergesellschaft facility in Oranienburg, they had, however, found nearly 100 tons of fairly pure uranium oxide. The Soviet Union took this uranium as reparations, which amounted to between 25% and 40% of the uranium taken from Germany and Czechoslovakia at the end of the war. Khariton said the uranium found there saved the Soviet Union a year on its atomic bomb project.

Well, I don't know credibility of the other stuff, but part is not correct. Acedemician Kikoin, who was searching uranium oxide with Khariton, says that they have found most part (more than 100 tonnes) at warehouse of the tannage factory at Neustadt am Glewe, small town at the Soviet/British zone border, hidden behind barrels of naples yellow. Uranium was send to factory by 'Hoffmann und Möltzen'.

http://www.rfbr.ru/default.asp?doc_id=28502.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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I'm surprised Jospeh P Farrell's book REICH OF THE BLACK SUN hasn't been mentioned yet. OK, don't roll your eyes at me. I'm not convinced what's in them is 100% true. But it does make a fun read on a stormy night. ;) However, I've said enough already.

Moonbat
 

TinWing

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It is clear that the Germans working under Heisenberg lacked both the resources and personnel to fully develop a working theory, let alone the physical material, to produce results equivalent to the Manhattan project.

Contrary to popular belief, the Nazi regime trailed the Americans by at least 3 or 4 years in terms of nuclear physics research, a situation that was exacerbated by the great diaspora of physicists from Germany and Nazi occupied countries. It can be said with certainty that the antisemitism of Nazi Germany greatly benefited the Manhattan Program, indirectly providing many key physicists for the American effort.
 

Jemiba

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Unfortunately only in german language, but for all, who can read this, it's a worthwhile
reading about the meeting between Niels Bohr and Werner Heisenberg.

http://othes.univie.ac.at/693/1/05-26-2008_9907612.pdf

It was written as a thesis, not giving a definite answer to the question, if Heisenberg
made all efforts for a german nuclear bomb, or if he tried to prevent it. But it gives a
very good insight into the circumstances of that meeting and into things, that happened
before, so giving more arguments for ones own opinion ! ;)
 

moin1900

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Hi everybody

MAYBE interesting ? ???
Here some documents !
http://www.petermann-heiko.de
http://www.petermann-heiko.de/aktuelles/themen.php
http://www.petermann-heiko.de/aktuelles/dokument.php
http://www.petermann-heiko.de/aktuelles/dokumente.php

Many greetings
moin1900
 
K

Kiwiguy

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Overscan commented:

I'm sorry, and this is my personal opinion only, but from what I can see this kind of research assumes a fact (The Nazis had a workable nuclear bomb project, the Nazis invented anti-gravity etc) and then attempts to amass "evidence" to support it. ALL contrary evidence is discounted out of hand, as it would invalidate the central premise. Any evidence supporting the premise is automatically valid, no matter its credibility.

I don't know if that was directed at me ?
I have no knowledge of nor belief in an anti-gravity project however I have corresponded with Nick Cook and he is a serious researcher. I can't judge, or dispute what I haven't bothered to research myself.

I'm surprised Jospeh P Farrell's book REICH OF THE BLACK SUN hasn't been mentioned yet. OK, don't roll your eyes at me. I'm not convinced what's in them is 100% true.

Flateric I don't own Joseph P Farrell's books and haven't read them but thanks for your recommendations. I prefer to do my own research from the source and do not depend on other people's analysis.

I have however done my own research into the German A-bomb project and Heisenberg was relatively unimportant to the Nazi nuclear effort. The real research was being conducted by people like Max von Ardenne, Erich Baage, Paul Harteck, Peter Debye and Kurt Diebner.

Mention must be made of Fritz Houtermanns who was almost definitely a Soviet agent. Houtermanns advocated the Plutonium Bomb. The Germans never had a chance of producing a Plutonium bomb before 1950.

Harteck and Diebner were together working on a Uranium enrichment plant and a Uranium A-bomb at an underground nuclear facility at Melk in Eastern Austria, built by Kammler.

Kammler was also trying to develop a three stage rocket at Pilsen Skoda works known under the codename V-101. Diebner was developing an extremely heavy nuclear warhead for the V-101. The prototype of this rocket was also designated the EMW A-12. It was a design by Dr Buedewald and Dr Teichmann which weighed 149 tons at launch. It was mentioned in La Fusee Pilote "T" and Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947." The first stage used clustered solid rocket boosters not unlike space shuttle's SRBs.

I do not suggest it was launched, but there's reasonable effort it was more than just a paper project for an ICBM with an atomic warhead.

I do not believe the Germans could have produced a Plutonium bomb. I think they could have built a Uranium bomb but ran out of time. I not only think, but I also know those who deny the Nazis were capable are head in the sand Ostriches.

They also don't have a grasp on the fact that politics and personal self interest overtook the Nazi nuclear project as those who had something to bargain with their enemies strived to do deals.

In late 1943 Roosevelt sent Moe Berg as a special OSS envoy to Rome whilst it was still under German occupation. Wernher von Braun's brother Sigsmund was a diplomat at the Vatican and private talks were held there which resulted in further talks between Wernher von Braun and two GEC officials at Lisbon in December 1944.

The truth is the Nazi Atomic bomb project was quietly abandoned as a concession to Operation Sunrise.
 

Orionblamblam

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Kiwiguy said:
Kammler was also trying to develop a three stage rocket at Pilsen Skoda works known under the codename V-101. Diebner was developing an extremely heavy nuclear warhead for the V-101. The prototype of this rocket was also designated the EMW A-12. It was a design by Dr Buedewald and Dr Teichmann which weighed 149 tons at launch. It was mentioned in La Fusee Pilote "T" and Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947." The first stage used clustered solid rocket boosters not unlike space shuttle's SRBs.


AAARRRRRGGGGHHH!!!!

12196370
 

Antonio

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Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947."

Please, only serious books from serious writers.
 

Lauge

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Kiwiguy said:
..... It was mentioned in La Fusee Pilote "T" and Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947."
Sorry Kiwiguy, but I'm with Overscan, Orionblamblam and Pometablava on this. I've read a large portion of Mr. F. Georg's books, and in my (far less than humble ;) ) opinion, he is guilty of exactly what Overscan initially suggested. I usually call it "Superman Research", i.e. leaping to very tall conclusions in a single bound ;D.

In one of his latest books, "Mit dem Balkenkreuz zum Mond" (loosely "With the Iron Cross to the Moon") he jumps on the "the-US-moonlandings-were-a-hoax" bandwaggon, although he does courteously admit that the initial Apollo 11 landing was "probably real" :p.

I find Mr. Georgs books entertaining, and they fire my imagination to no end, but when it comes to anything to do with the real world, I would take anything from his pen with, not just a grain, but more like a couple of waggonloads of salt.

Kiwiguy said:
The truth is the Nazi Atomic bomb project was quietly abandoned as a concession to Operation Sunrise.
"Operation Sunrise" ???

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark
 

Michel Van

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I'm also with Overscan, Orionblamblam and Pometablava on this.

over the years more and more, that "Junk" pop up in bookstores
and they getting confused and Weirder

Like Polish book calming Hitler life under Southpol or on the Moon or Mars Nazi base.
(thanks to "Rocket Ship Galileo", bad Heinlein, bad Heinlein...)
or Russian book about manned V-2 flights
or over Nazi Superweapon technology like Nazi UFO (if they had that stuff, why they have loose WWII ?)
this getting esoteric, not Historical :mad:

the only serious books from serious writers i had lately
"Hitlers Bombe. Die Geheime Geschichte der deutschen Kernwaffenversuche" by Rainer Karlsch

p.s
please don't be anger, how I use therm Nazi
i m from Germany and consider Nazis not as Germans, but as "bunch's Insane massmurder megalomaniac's"
 

Jemiba

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"..please don't be anger, how I use therm Nazi "

In cinema, "Nazis" are the bad, very bad guys, who in the end always loose.
Today, they are those persons, who may live in your neighbourhood, kind and
politely, always wishing you a "good morning" and if you just get to know their
opinions about rape, or child abuse, you may even think "nothing wrong with this
guy !". And if you have a look into the pamphlets of their political parties, you will
hardly find demands as "invade Poland", "attack the arch enemy France", or "kill all
jews" ... Their political leaders have learned to keep quite and are trying to integrate
into political live, but not by changing themselves, I really think, but by camouflage.
For me as a german ( and a german tax payer!) it is very hard to bear the knowledge,
that their official party still is fed with taxes !
And there are still a lot of attempts, to lure people to their side. And for me, books as those
mentioned aren't technical or historical documentations, but baits for the unaware.
Honestly, the title "Siegeswaffen" for a book can only be meant ironically, or it is clear,
what the contents are. And again : Who of us would believe in a russian book,
claiming that during 1943 there were partially succesful attempts to "beam" troops behind
the german lines. As a proof, there are reports, telling that the german commanders were
totally surprised to meet russian, where they never were expected ... !
Would you buy this story ?
And now think about all those stories about german "Wunderwaffen", that are told and discussed,
instead of thrown into the dustbin .... :mad:

Well, we'll have this theme on and on again, I know... ::)
 

XP67_Moonbat

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This topic has taken on a life of it's own and become a soddin' cottage industry now! We now have X-amount of books on the subject and in fact there's even going to be movie coming out sometime this year just about that. Can you believe it?

OK, now I want everybody to have good laugh on me. Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn4DW1uvsAE

Moonbat
 

Michel Van

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lol

that by makers of Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning
a Cult parody of both Star Trek and Babylon 5 B)
and yes they from FINLAND ;D
[flash=200,200]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R79JuYdG5KY[/flash]

they new parody is IRONSKY a spoof on esoteric Nazis belief
 

XP67_Moonbat

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:eek: Oh-my-God. As a serious fanboy of both franchises, I just want say: THAT WAS AWESOME! I have got to find a copy Pirkinning!
 

Michel Van

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try here http://www.starwreck.com/

by the way the guy of Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning
made the CGI there self on house hold PC ;D
lot of the actors were local unemployed people ::)
 

boxkite

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Kiwiguy said:
...

I have however done my own research into the German A-bomb project and Heisenberg was relatively unimportant to the Nazi nuclear effort. The real research was being conducted by people like Max von Ardenne, Erich Baage, Paul Harteck, Peter Debye and Kurt Diebner.

...

Who the hell is Max von Ardenne? One 'author' writes it wrong ... and all the others crib this mistake. An example for the 'carefulness' and trustworthiness of the 'authors'. (Actually his name was Manfred von Ardenne.)

Btw, "In 1939 Debye traveled to the United States of America to deliver the Baker Lectures at Cornell University in Ithaca, New York. After leaving Germany in early 1940, Debye became a professor at Cornell ..." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Debye)

Jemiba said:
"..please don't be anger, how I use therm Nazi "

In cinema, "Nazis" are the bad, very bad guys, who in the end always loose.
Today, they are those persons, who may live in your neighbourhood, kind and
politely, always wishing you a "good morning" and if you just get to know their
opinions about rape, or child abuse, you may even think "nothing wrong with this
guy !". And if you have a look into the pamphlets of their political parties, you will
hardly find demands as "invade Poland", "attack the arch enemy France", or "kill all
jews" ... Their political leaders have learned to keep quite and are trying to integrate
into political live, but not by changing themselves, I really think, but by camouflage.
For me as a german ( and a german tax payer!) it is very hard to bear the knowledge,
that their official party still is fed with taxes !
And there are still a lot of attempts, to lure people to their side. And for me, books as those
mentioned aren't technical or historical documentations, but baits for the unaware.
Honestly, the title "Siegeswaffen" for a book can only be meant ironically, or it is clear,
what the contents are. And again : Who of us would believe in a russian book,
claiming that during 1943 there were partially succesful attempts to "beam" troops behind
the german lines. As a proof, there are reports, telling that the german commanders were
totally surprised to meet russian, where they never were expected ... !
Would you buy this story ?
And now think about all those stories about german "Wunderwaffen", that are told and discussed,
instead of thrown into the dustbin .... :mad:

Well, we'll have this theme on and on again, I know... ::)

I quite agree! Nothing more to say!
 

zen

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I think so.

If you read David Irving’s meticulously researched book “The Virus House”

David Irving? The very same one who denys the Holocaust?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Lauge said:
Kiwiguy said:
..... It was mentioned in La Fusee Pilote "T" and Freidrich Georg's book "Siegeswaffen band 2, Star Wars 1947."
Sorry Kiwiguy, but I'm with Overscan, Orionblamblam and Pometablava on this. I've read a large portion of Mr. F. Georg's books, and in my (far less than humble ;) ) opinion, he is guilty of exactly what Overscan initially suggested. I usually call it "Superman Research", i.e. leaping to very tall conclusions in a single bound ;D.

In one of his latest books, "Mit dem Balkenkreuz zum Mond" (loosely "With the Iron Cross to the Moon") he jumps on the "the-US-moonlandings-were-a-hoax" bandwaggon, although he does courteously admit that the initial Apollo 11 landing was "probably real" :p.

I find Mr. Georgs books entertaining, and they fire my imagination to no end, but when it comes to anything to do with the real world, I would take anything from his pen with, not just a grain, but more like a couple of waggonloads of salt.

Yes, the classic example of this to my mind is the book 1421:The Year China Discovered the World where the author simply seems to make a gigantic "superman leap" (China sent out a huge fleet of ships to explore the world) and then spend hundreds of hours desperately searching for evidence to back up his outrageous theory.

Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

Topic is locked.
 
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Kiwiguy

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The Rosetta stone for discovering the truth of Nazi nuclear efforts comes from Prof Kurt Diebner, whom in 1956 under the nom de plume Werner Tautorus, published in Atomkernenergie, pp 368-370 and pp.423-425 catalogue of 228 German wartime reports on their atomic research, giving their dates.

Another valuable resource is a postwar account by ultracentrifuge inventor Dr Erich Bagge and Prof Kurt Diebner (formerly HWA) published in Von der Uranspaltungbis Calder Hall (Rowohlt, Hamburg, 1957).

Zen, your line of logic is wrong because you are assuming incorrectly that the only path to a nuclear bomb is through a nuclear reactor (to make Plutonium).
It was the path most obvious back then, this was all cutting edge science back then, with LOTS of gaps in their knowledge.
Line of logic is clear insofar as the reactor would kill a lot of people.

Not entirely so Zen. Houtermanns was brilliant. Far more so than Heisenberg whom history reveres as the leading nazi nuclear scientist. Houtermanns not only figured out the theory by 1941 but also published it. The fact that Houtermanns published so much which it is accepted post war which Heisenberg is not supposed to understand calls into question either Heisenberg's competency or honesty.

Verifiable references to Houtermanns’ research on developing Plutonium weapons:

Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen” (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

Verifiable references to Prof Kurt Diebner’s separate Uranium bomb project:

Diebner’s report “Experiments on the Initiation of Nuclear Reactions by Means of Exploding Substances.” ALSOS files
Herrmann, Hartwig, Rackwitz, Trinks and Schaub, report entitled:
“Versuche über die Einleitung von Kernkettenreaktionen durch dieWirkung explodierender Stoffe, 1944 (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Prof Kurt Diebner’s review of the experiments, “Fusionsprozesse mit Hilfe konvergenter Stosswellen,” published in Kerntechnik, March 1962, pp 89-93
Dr Erich Bagge’s wartime diaries
ALSOS report Vdk 339


Dr Erich Baage developed the gaseous Uranium centrifuge at Kiel Unavernin in 1942 which he called the Isotope Sluice. It is nowadays called the Harteck process after another Nazi scientist Dr Paul Harteck who developed the centrifuge to an industrial scale during WW2. In early 1944 a huge contract was let to HWA for the industrial scale development of Uranium centrifuges. The budget for this was ten times greater than the entire budget available to Heisenberg's KWA team (Virus House)
How many centrifuges?

Unclear however after bombing of the Hellage ultracentrifuge factory in Freiburg on 27 November 1944 it was noted by ALSOS that "several" were put into dispersed storage around Hamburg. Essau the administrative plenepotentiary for Nazi nuclear science set aside a 600,000 Reichsmark budget for ten double unltracentrifuge machines to be manufactured by Kiel firm Anschütz & Co.

Its not a trivial effort to get thousands of centrifuges working reliably for long enough to produce enriched uranium. For a military effort we're talking many thousands. Thats a lot of metal to machine and assemble. Which in turn means a lot of production capacity taken out of use for other more pressing needs at the time.

Correct it wasn't a trivial effort however... to say it required many thousands of centrifuges is I would say an over statement.

As for detracting from other wartime production, this was a high priority project to produce a weapon which might have won the war and Nazi leaders were aware of the importance. Given the massive slave labour force and the sheer scale of for example U-boat production at Kiel where Anschütz & Co was based, it was a drop in the bucket to manufacture these centrifuges.

Hang on...'44?
What evidence is there for the actual completion of the contract to produce these centrifuges?

In answer to your question may I suggest you read

Report on Uranium centrifuge plants at Kandern & Freiburg (found in Oak Ridge file box G-330)

The Keil firm Anschütz & Co. established a general workshop, then a mass-production line for Mark III-B centrifuges at a disused Linen factory in Kandern near the border with Switzerland. The factory code name was “Angora Farm.” Mark III-B centrifuges were being mass produced at the Hellage factory in Freiburg which was destroyed in an air raid on 27 November 1944.

Other more general references to Nazi development work on Uranium centrifuges from 1942 to 1944 are found in:

Dr Wilhelm Groth’s diary and reports (found in Oak Ridge file box G-146, 149, & 158)
Speer, April 17 April 1942, NARS microfilm T-175, roll 125
Unidentified diary seized by ALSOS (found in Oak Ridge file box G-355)
Published Report: The Ultracentrifuge, 1940 by Theo Svedberg & Dr Kai Pedersen Stockholm University

Following a conference on nuclear research in October 1944 Goering’s private office wrote to Walter Gerlach enquiring of realistic chances to develop a nuclear weapon in the near future? Gerlach wrote back detailing progress mentioning heavy water production amongst which he also said:

“ The development of the ultracentrifuge is complete and a working plan for the production of uranium with the necessary U-235 isotope enrichment is under construction. Other processes are being developed to the same end, to lead to simpler plants. The production of the necessary uranium compounds and experiments to produce suitable compounds are in hand.”

(Goering's secretary Gonnert’s correspondence with Gerlach on microfilm Alexandria, Virginia - Military Records Center).


The German Atomic Project was actually three separate projects. One with the Army (HWA) led by Heisenberg, the Reichspost, led by Houtermans with von Ardenne, and the SS.

Three seperate projects, three seperate project leaders?
How very NAZI indeed, probably in competition I would imagine, and thus detracting from what should have been a singular effort.

Or perhaps in ways which we may not appreciate now, a more effective comparmentalisation of different approaches?

In any case, I have attempted to answer criticisms by citing some verifiable sources which seems to be the common complaint. It is over to you gentlement to spend hours poring over these archives mainly in German.
 

edwest2

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From the Nonproliferation Review, Summer 2000.

The Russians seized a 60 ton cyclotron and a plasma-ionic isotope separation installation at the workshop of Manfred von Ardenne. In Austria, the Russians acquired nearly 340 kg of metallic uranium.

[From another source easy to locate online.]

In 1953, Manfred von Ardenne was awarded the Stalin Prize, First Class for his work on the Russian atomic bomb.

From 1945 to 1950, Nikolaus Riehl was in charge of uranium production in Russia.

In 1951, Peter Adolf Thiessen was awarded the Stalin Prize, First Class for his work in uranium enrichment.

Compartmentalization also occurred in the United States during the war.

[Secret Science - Federal Control of American Science and Technology by Herbert N. Foerstel]


"Indeed,among the mutitude of secrecy procedures introduced during World War II, none was more dubious than compartmentalization. Employed by the military on national security grounds, the imposition of this philosopy on scientific research was uniformly counterproductive. One government official admitted that 'more harm in arresting research and development was done by this compartmentalization of information than could ever have been done by the additional scrap of information that the enemy might have picked up by a more general dissemination of knowledge.'"
 
K

Kiwiguy

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Thank you Joe. I have been offline for a year however I should have cited these sources from the start and that may have averted some criticisms.

In December 1941 Groth reported each ultracentrifuge could produce two kilograms of Uranium Hexafluoride per day enriched by 7% each cycle. Thus if one commenced with 36 kilograms (79lb) of un-enriched Uranium Hexafluoride and then cycled the entire mass about 250 times through one mark III-B ultracentrifuge, one would end up with bomb grade (90%+U235) Uranium Hexaflouride. That is to say enough U235 for one Uranium atom bomb after 9 months.

The Mark III-B was not perfected until late 1944. It is known that at least ten ultracentrifuges were built. A single ultracentrifuge cost between twelve and fifteen thousand Reichsmarks and 600,000 Reichsmarks were budgeted for manufacture of mark III-B ultracentrifuges.

Ten mark III-B ultracentrifuges working in unison could reduce 36kg of Uranium Hexafluoride to bomb grade HEU in under a month.

The mark III-B ultracentrifuge spun at 60,000 rpm. The centrifuges developed in Iran’s first generation machines hidden below ground at their Netanz site only spun at 11,000rpm which means the Nazi machines were more productive and did not require thousands of them.

Reference sources:

Groth’s laboratory reports based on diary notes for December 1941 (Oak Ridge file G-82)
Postwar monograph Verlag Chemie GMBH, 1949: Über Gaszentrifugen written by Beyerle, Groth, Harteck and Jensen.
ALSOS reports (Oak Ridge file G-83, G-95 and G-88 also refer)


It is worth noting that the inclination of Nazi scientists at the time was not to use HEU directly in a bomb but rather to develop breeder reactors for Plutonium which in actual fact would have incurred a further 6 year delay.

It is hard to say whether enriched uranium was diverted to breeder reactor experiments or was intended for production of a uranium A-bomb however I am convinced by reading other sources that by late 1944 Nazi Atomic scientists and even SS leaders were being courted by ALSOS with proposals for pardons and inclusion in Operation Overcast.

My personal opinion is that by the time ultracentrifuges were able to produce sufficient HEU for an A-bomb Nazi Atomic scientists were already persuaded that the end was nigh and to surrender to US forces, with some exceptions like Diebner and Harteck who never renounced Nazism after the war.
 

zen

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So how many nations use this 'ultracentrifuge' today?
 

mz

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It's the most modern and least energy using method to enrich Uranium by now. I'm really surprised if Germans had that operational during the war, if that is true. It requires really high RPM. Germans did develop the technology in the Soviet Union after the war but it took some time.
 

hs1216

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If you mix coal dust and enriched uranium you are not going to get a pink liquid. In the real world, uranium is a metal, and it looks like a metal. Yellow cake is as about as exciting as it gets with uranium. I know that in si-fi you have cool looking translucent, incandescent radioactive material, but that's the movies. Sorry to disappoint.
 

RyanC

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Kiwiguy said:
Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen” (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

That's nice. Now RG number and NAII number?
 

Abraham Gubler

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overscan said:
Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

It can also be applied to journalism... But usually a JSF needs to be involved somehow...
 

Orionblamblam

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Abraham Gubler said:
overscan said:
Crucial to this method of research is the ability to ignore any evidence that might contradict or damage the author's thesis, no matter how accepted or proven it is by the wider scientific or historical community, and to implicitly trust any evidence that supports the thesis, even when it is demonstrably wrong or untrustworthy.

It can also be applied to journalism... But usually a JSF needs to be involved somehow...

HouseOhSnap.gif
 

edwest2

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RyanCrierie said:
Kiwiguy said:
Houtermanns’s August 1944 paper “Zur Frage der Auslösung von Kernhettenreaktionen” (found in Oak Ridge file box G-267)
Jentschke and Lintner’s paper: Schnelle Neutronen in Uran (found in Oak Ridge file box G-227)
Volz and Haxel paper (found in Oak Ridge file box G-118)
Prof J Schintlmeister’s report (element 94 Plutonium) is given in Oak Ridge file box G-111)

That's nice. Now RG number and NAII number?




Here's the RG:


http://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/326.html
 
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