German WWII 1945 V4 Pabst Ramjet

[airrocket]

Whats a German V4 weapon? Ran across some discussion in old threads on another forum. The pics were all dead ends. I assume its a missile just not sure.

 

[Lauge]

Whats a German V4 weapon?

Lots of rumour, lots of hearsay, lots of sourceless quotes and sketches. Big fat zero in the "verifiable facts" department.

Having been interested in German WWII secret weapons (NO! *sigh* NOT anti-gravity flying saucers and death-rays, OK ?) and having combed through my share of material, both the good, the bad and the ugly, I think it is reasonably safe to conclude (although I'm sure someone will disagree):
1) Was there a German "Vergeltungswaffe 4" ? Yes, probably. The V1 was a cruise missile, the V2 a ballistic missile, the V3 (according to the most credible sources) a multi-chamber long-range gun, and why would the Germans stop at that ? But please note that I have not seen what I would consider solid, irrefutable evidence that the V4 actually existed.
2) What was the "V4", assuming it existed ? Your guesses are as good as mine. Could have been a missile, such as an "upgraded" V1, could have been a German radiological (or chemical or biological) weapon, could have been something else entirely.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Denmark

 

[Jemiba]

I'm not sure, that "V1" or "V2" ever were official designation. To my opinion, these names
were just given by the ministry for propaganda, to show people, that the german army/
airforce was "still taking revenge" (V1/2 : "Vergeltungswaffe", weapon for retaliation) .
To give such a designation to an untested weapon, that still could fail to function at all,
may well have been contra productive ! So, I think "V3" or "V4" were never really used for
a specific type of weapon, these designation would have been allocated to the next "sensation",
that may have been fielded. The V1 and V2 were not only meant to destroy
allied targets, but also to booster german morale and for this reason at least some evidence
had to be given to the german public. These weapons weren't secret at all, they could be
seen in the "Wochenschau" (news reports shown in the cinema) !

 

[Michel Van]

the problem is this the "V" Term
the "Vergeltungswaffe" or "V" came direct from Joseph Goebbels on 24 June 1944
German military they use term "Versuchsmuster" or "V" with number for Prototypes

know are
V1 named by Goebbels on speech in on 24 June 1944 = Fieseler Fi 103
V2 named by Goebbels on speech after September 1944 = Aggregat 4 (A4)

uncertain are
V3 = Fernkanone aka Hochdruckpumpe, Tausendfüßler, fleißiges Lieschen or Englandkanone
Other claim
V3 = Amerikarakete aka Aggregat 9/10
Vergeltungswaffe 3 was NOT mention by Goebbels.

in the time of Internet came up with a lot V Weapons claims
like V-7 or so called BMW V-weapon and Nazi UFOs
no of them are Real WW2 weapons

 

[Justo Miranda]

From "After the battle" Number 6
Battle of Britain prints international 1974

 

[Jemiba]

Thanks for this article Justo !
" ... were quickly dubbed V4 ". Here's the main source for many of those
names and designations, I think ! Post war examination by the allies !
Other examples probably are "Ameisenbär" (Ant eater) for the Do 335,
or "Rammer", or many else ... :

 

[Justo Miranda]

From most infamous sources:
V5 is Horten Ho XVIII
V6 is Daimler Benz "Projekt A"
V7 is EMW A9/A10 composite

 

[airrocket]

OK the maned V-1. I've seen a couple similar photo's of that concept just never realized it had a V# assigned.

Thanks for photo!

 

[Jemiba]

"..just never realized it had a V# assigned."

AFAIK it was never called a V-weapon ! It was called "Reichenberg-Gerät" during
the development, intended as a testbed for the V1, later there were thoughts about
its use for suicide missions, but, I think, those intentions were never really made public,
for good reasons ! So a V-designation would have been absolutely useless ... :

 

[Grzesio]

Another version:
V 4 = Rheinbote (described as such in an another AtB volume); it's clearly stated in the AtB, from which the scan above is taken, that the Reichenberg was only nicknamed V 4 by the Allies after the war.
V 5 = 31 cm K 5 (E) glatt with PPG shells
V 6 = 80 cm K (E) with PPG shells.
Generally it seems, V-Waffen were not fighter planes or AA rockets (Schmetterling is often identified as the V 3), but long range weapons able to reach targets at min. 160 km distance.

Regards

Grzesio

 

[Artie Bob]

IMHO, some miss the significance of the V-x sequence. The (V-2) A-4 was the result of a long term German army research program. Similarly, the V-1 (Fi 103) was the result of a Luftwaffe development program, both programs initiated well before the propaganda need to redesignate the hardware as Vengance weapons. It may well be that other existing programs were to be redesignated as V- weapons, but it would seem that there was little propaganda value for the target of redesignation, German civilian population, of weapons that were very far in the future. My personal position is because there is so much crap published concerning third reich technology, that unless validated copies of primary documentation is presented, I consider it to be worthless.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

 

[Jemiba]

Artie, you got it !

Everyone, who is researching that era of german aviation has to walk through mud knee deep,
made up of exaggerations of real achievements, ideas, that were never meant to be realised,
rumors from “secret sources”, deliberate fakes and, of course some authentic informations.
And the last ones are getting rare, as a lot already has been published, so there often may be the
temptation, to believe in “sensations” without asking too much, not to speak of people, who are pro-ducing such “sensations” on their own.
May be very hard, to tell a gem from a piece of glass !

 

[Michel Van]

I have the same Opinion

so far some show me authentic information's.
and not " A friend of mine , how name does not wish his name mentioned ...."
i refuse to believe it !
(sorry Kiwiguy, this not personal, only that I find this sentence a zillion times in forums )

about "authentic information's."
nowdays Wikipedia claims there were MANNED A-9 Launches !
oh boy welcome to land of Free, nonsens...the Internet :

 

[sagallacci]

A "Luft '46" fan site suggested a missile not unlike a Rheinbote with a Pabst ramjet hung onto it as the "V-4". While the notion of such an arrangement is not much of a stretch, there wasn't any credible evidence to it actually happening, other than vague mutterings of little documented launchings into the Baltic and such.

The only other data on the ramjet I've seen was some miniscule bits on wind tunnel tests and the FW Treibflugel and a few other proposed applications.

 

[airrocket]

Looking for B/P's dimensions etc... of Pabst ramjet for Focke-Wulf Ta 283 model.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Length 2700 mm.
Diameter 1440 mm.
From "Reichdreams " N.19 and
"Die Deutschen Raketenflugzeuge" by Joachim Dressel & Manfred Griehl , Motorbuch Verlag 1989

 

[Bodmas]

the problem is this the "V" Term
the "Vergeltungswaffe" or "V" came direct from Joseph Goebbels on 24 June 1944
German military they use term "Versuchsmuster" or "V" with number for Prototypes

know are
V1 named by Goebbels on speech in on 24 June 1944 = Fieseler Fi 103
V2 named by Goebbels on speech after September 1944 = Aggregat 4 (A4)

uncertain are
V3 = Fernkanone aka Hochdruckpumpe, Tausendfüßler, fleißiges Lieschen or Englandkanone
Other claim
V3 = Amerikarakete aka Aggregat 9/10
Vergeltungswaffe 3 was NOT mention by Goebbels.

in the time of Internet came up with a lot V Weapons claims
like V-7 or so called BMW V-weapon and Nazi UFOs
no of them are Real WW2 weapons

I agree with Michael Van... the problem is with the "V" designation; which i understand to denote "Versuchs [number]" or "Prototype [Number]" in English; hence, V1 is the "First" Prototype, V2, the second and so on...
As Michael quite correctly noted above, Goebbels hijacked the "V" [Versuchs] number and "rebranded" it to imply that the Reich "had Something ["Vergeltungswaffe"] up it's sleeve..." so to speak.

To quote from:

Ian Hogg (1999)
German Secret Weapons of the Second World War
Greenhill Books, UK
[ISBN 1-85367-325-0]
(p. 51)

"The expression "V-4" appears here and there, but it rarely appears to apply to the same thing twice. It has been applied to the A9/A10 rocket combination, to the German nuclear bomb, to the piloted V-1 and to a postulated German radioactive bomb, among other things."

Given that the RLM insisted that each successive prototype (of a Project design) of an aircraft be assigned a "V-number", it is hardly surprising that such confusions still arise today.

Hope this may be of use

 

[Jemiba]

I think, we are beginning to mix things !
The letter "V" used to designate "Versuchsmuster" (prototypes) and was ALWAYS used
in conjunction with the types designation only, e.g. "Ju 88 V1", "Me 262 V1".
Goebbels creatures were the "Vergeltungswaffen" (retaliations weapons) V1 and V2,
but those were used as soem kind of completly new designations and never as suffix to
the actual type designations, which would have meant "A-4 V2" or "Fi 103 V1" and only
denoted just one example.
So, those designations could be seen as "political designations" at best, with no actual
relation to type or its develoment. And there weren not any more, or is there soembody,
who remembers Goebbels speech in the "Führerbunker" on the 9th of May 1945 ?!
And actually, we should discuss aviation technology and history and not silly statements
of criminals, who called themselves "politicians", shouldn't we ?

 

[Grzesio]

And there weren not any more, or is there soembody,
who remembers Goebbels speech in the "Führerbunker" on the 9th of May 1945 ?!

Wasn't the guy dead for more than a week then?

Regards

Grzesio

 

[Jemiba]

"Wasn't the guy dead for more than a week then?"

Probably not, if we believe in those guys, that are telling us about
V3s, V4s, V5s and so on .....

And Hitler himself was still alive then, too, as recently, I read of someone, who is
reasearching about his escape from Berlin in a Fieseler Storch, flown by Hanna Reitsch,
before he went to Argentina !
And there he probably ordered the V8 to V99, as the US was now in easy reach .. ;D

Tons of sensational stuff are waiting for us !!

 

[RdsG46]

Does anyone knows something about this Ta 283(?) bomber project? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NzNgvUzyNI

 

[PlanesPictures]

This is Ta Bomber and I have done these pictures for David Myhra ten years ago. Maybe more in his books. It is known Ta Fighter, too.

 

[RdsG46]

Nice to meet you


Ta 283 ramjet/rocket fighter and the other version which is usually mentioned as "Super Lorin" are well known . But this two-seat bomber version is new to me.


Did you make the model based on plans/drawings?

 

[Justo Miranda]

From
Paul Malmassari archives

 

[RdsG46]

From
Paul Malmassari archives

Secret Projects forum is a place where a copy of 67-year old technical drawing could make my day ;D


Thank you!