GE XA100 and P&W XA101 AETP engines

The XA100 and XA101 are regarded as “45,000 lbf class” engines and having 10% more thrust than the CTOL F135-PW-100 while having a similar footprint, but this is simply the static thrust rating. The engines would also provide 18% faster acceleration, but part the envelope wasn’t specified. I’d be more interested in the dynamic thrust.
 

GE XA100 Will Fit STOVL F-35B, But Pratt Questions Practicality​


What the Captain er, PR Representative meant to say:

"I mean, after all, how could this possibly help our monopoly on this platform and raise the P&W EBITA?"

Edit: wordy stuff
 
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One thing to remember with the F135 vs any potentially new engine such as the XA100 is that the production and support base for the F135 is largely already stood up. This is critical when one considers ideas such as introducing it for the F-35. Not only the US manufacturing and support base but also those around the world including depots in the IndoPac and European regions. To ignore that is fraught with danger.
 
It seems like GE might have possibly won the OEM contest, and the USAF is now giving them more than 300 million dollars (Specifically, 302,470,000 dollars). 203 million dollars will go to technology maturation and risk reduction services, while the remaining 99 million and 470 thousand dollars will go to cost. It may be possible that there will be more money involved as future developments continue so we gotta keep an eye out for any possible future developments that may happen to the ATEP and NGAP programs

However, please take this tweet with a grain of salt, as this may be kinda preliminary information, or outdated information. I already asked the author for a source, so should a source come up, I'll post it here too

https://twitter.com/x/status/1607866968945885184
View: https://twitter.com/MIL_STD/status/1607866968945885184
 
The NDAA had about $380m for AETP in 2023. So, even after the FY22 carry-over funds, it would seem more than half of the available funds just went to GE. But I don't think this is a quiet down-select just yet, Pratt will probably get a smaller amount of money toward EEP work.
 
Moose said:
The NDAA had about $380m for AETP in 2023. So, even after the FY22 carry-over funds, it would seem more than half of the available funds just went to GE. But I don't think this is a quiet down-select just yet, Pratt will probably get a smaller amount of money toward EEP work.
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If that's true, the GE's engine might possibly go on to the NGAD or F/A-XX, while P&W's goes to the F-35
 
Cacodemon said:
Moose said:
The NDAA had about $380m for AETP in 2023. So, even after the FY22 carry-over funds, it would seem more than half of the available funds just went to GE. But I don't think this is a quiet down-select just yet, Pratt will probably get a smaller amount of money toward EEP work.
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If that's true, the GE's engine might possibly go on to the NGAD or F/A-XX, while P&W's goes to the F-35
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Which P&W engine, 101 or EEP? Right at this moment, barring more data coming to light, I'd be pretty surprised if XA101 ends up in F-35. Pratt's EEP has a much better chance as the "lower cost but still moves the needle" engine option...but Congress, or specifically the membership who cares about this, is pushing for a full AETP engine (XA100 or 101) for F-35. The NDAA also includes a mandate for a report on getting an AETP engine fitted to F-35B and C, if GE's right and their design can do all three they're going to have a pretty significant base of support in the legislature. I think there's still potential for a split buy between XA100 and EEP, if F-35B is just too much of a hassle to fully upgrade.

NGAD's engine options are being designed using AETP work, but we haven't seen enough about them or the program as a whole to handicap any options. From an industry perspective, having two crewed NGAD programs plus multiple "loyal wingman" super drones would seem to offer a solid opportunity to see both GE and Pratt get work in the 6th generation.
 
Moose said:
Which P&W engine, 101 or EEP?
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I meant the XE101, because that's what P&W were working on as an AETP for future fighters. I did not know about EEP, but now that I read it at P&W's website, it now looks like that it might be their ATEP package for the F-35, with the XE101 being their package for the NGAD and other future aircraft

Moose said:
Right at this moment, barring more data coming to light, I'd be pretty surprised if XA101 ends up in F-35. Pratt's EEP has a much better chance as the "lower cost but still moves the needle" engine option...but Congress, or specifically the membership who cares about this, is pushing for a full AETP engine (XA100 or 101) for F-35.
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I see. A complete AETP engine would have far more fuel efficiency and the capability to be effective at several flight regimes. EEP would be at most, an upgrade to an already-existing engine that may or not have particial or complete Adaptive Engine capabilities. And while AETP can be used for the F-35 and possibly newer fighters, the EEP would be a far more economical choice as it might just be an upgrade package to the F-35's engines to make it far more fuel efficient, and have some limited Adaptive Cycle capabilities.

Moose said:
The NDAA also includes a mandate for a report on getting an AETP engine fitted to F-35B and C, if GE's right and their design can do all three they're going to have a pretty significant base of support in the legislature. I think there's still potential for a split buy between XA100 and EEP, if F-35B is just too much of a hassle to fully upgrade.
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Assuming they would be able to go straight to full and pure AETPs for F-35s, no matter how expensive, it will be of benefit, that would be for sure. But potentially, a split buy is possible too.

Moose said:
NGAD's engine options are being designed using AETP work, but we haven't seen enough about them or the program as a whole to handicap any options. From an industry perspective, having two crewed NGAD programs plus multiple "loyal wingman" super drones would seem to offer a solid opportunity to see both GE and Pratt get work in the 6th generation.
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Also given how Advanced the Next Generation Air Dominance would be, it's likely that they may be given far more advanced versions of the AETP instead. At most, the GE XA100 and the P&W XE101 could ultimately just be test engines, or those suited only for the F-35. The actual engines that will be made for the future fighters will be on a whole new level compared to those being studied now. Perhaps the same upgrades can be given to the B-21s as well, possibly the first production models, assuming that the first AETPs are made available by then.
 
Even more tweets from the same guy, and he still didn't give me source

There is however a Defense News Article regarding this event (Rather dated however, as it was posted on August 20):

www.defensenews.com

US Air Force picks five companies to prototype next-gen engines

The awards to the five firms mark a broadening of the adaptive engine market, which until now has been dominated by GE Aviation and Pratt & Whitney.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

Based on what the pictures say, it implies that the USAF has awarded 5 contracts, worth almost 5 billion dollars, to 5 different companies, all for the purpose of developing the "Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion" or NGAP program. The 5 Companies are as listed:

1: Boeing
2: Lockheed Martin
3: Northrop Grumman
4: General Electric
5: Raytheon

As always, take these with a grain of salt

https://twitter.com/x/status/1608097423871860737
View: https://twitter.com/MIL_STD/status/1608097423871860737

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Cacodemon said:
Even more tweets from the same guy, and he still didn't give me source

There is however a Defense News Article regarding this event (Rather dated however, as it was posted on August 20):

www.defensenews.com

US Air Force picks five companies to prototype next-gen engines

The awards to the five firms mark a broadening of the adaptive engine market, which until now has been dominated by GE Aviation and Pratt & Whitney.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com

Based on what the pictures say, it implies that the USAF has awarded 5 contracts, worth almost 5 billion dollars, to 5 different companies, all for the purpose of developing the "Next Generation Adaptive Propulsion" or NGAP program. The 5 Companies are as listed:

1: Boeing
2: Lockheed Martin
3: Northrop Grumman
4: General Electric
5: Raytheon

As always, take these with a grain of salt

https://twitter.com/x/status/1608097423871860737
View: https://twitter.com/MIL_STD/status/1608097423871860737

View attachment 690218
View attachment 690219
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I think that guy is @bring_it_on
 
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Ronny said:
I think that guy is @bring it on
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Wait who? He's a member here?

Anyways, the guy just asked me to do some research, which I did earlier BTW, but I wasn't able to find the exact online document where he screenshot the pics. Just a Defense News Article saying the same thing but not showing their source, as well as a fruitless search attempt
 
Anyways, a kind person on Twitter shared to me the actual source, or maybe a copy-paste from the actual source, as it's still from Defense News. Even if it may be a possible copy-paste of the original contract documents (Or even if the website itself is an official government website, in this case), please treat this with a grain of salt, who knows what possible alterations may be present in the document, or what details regarding the project are actually omitted, not mentioned, or altered in the document

www.defense.gov

Contracts for August 19, 2022

Today's Defense Department contracts valued at $7.5 million or more are now live on Defense.gov.
www.defense.gov
 
In all those years, all over the web, BiO (BringItOn) has been reliable like a Swiss clockwork.
Believe us, you may want to dustoff the grains of salt. You won't need it. ;)
 
TomcatViP said:
In all those years, all over the web, BiO (BringItOn) has been reliable like a Swiss clockwork.
Believe us, you may want to dustoff the grains of salt. You won't need it. ;)
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I suppose so. But I'd rather keep my eye on things like these, because there may be more than meets the eye.
 
Isn't it pretty obvious that they've awarded the contracts to both the propulsion primes (GE, Raytheon/P&W) and the airframe primes (Boeing, LM, NG) because the scope of work includes integration that needs input from both propulsion and airframe parties. Its not as if Boeing are building their own engine.

The IDIQ contracts seem to be tool of choice comercially now. Everyone "wins" the competition, but you only fund the ones you want to actually do any work. Its a pretty blatant work around acquisition rules. Surely it'll be banned in time once GAO see it.
 
red admiral said:
Isn't it pretty obvious that they've awarded the contracts to both the propulsion primes (GE, Raytheon/P&W) and the airframe primes (Boeing, LM, NG) because the scope of work includes integration that needs input from both propulsion and airframe parties. Its not as if Boeing are building their own engine.

The IDIQ contracts seem to be tool of choice comercially now. Everyone "wins" the competition, but you only fund the ones you want to actually do any work. Its a pretty blatant work around acquisition rules. Surely it'll be banned in time once GAO see it.
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On what grounds does this contract break Acquisition Rules? Or perhaps the rules have been changed a bit to allow multiple companies to invest and work on the same technology? Air Force did say that they aren't gonna fllow traditional acquisition rules for future aircraft, or something similar to the effect
 
I would be sure it is legal, but my point more is that it seems like an obvious work around that is against the spirit.
 
red admiral said:
I would be sure it is legal, but my point more is that it seems like an obvious work around that is against the spirit.
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I see. I guess they're trying something new, and in order to do that, they might have to get around some things that may prove detrimental to the progress of the program
 
They don't outweigh the benefit of keeping engine development going by replacing the F135 on the F-35A/C.
 
Ronny said:
acegeek9992 said:
www.airandspaceforces.com

Air Force Skips AETP Engines for F-35, Presses on with NGAP | Air & Space Forces Magazine

After $4 billion, the Air Force is skipping the AETP engine for the F-35 and moving on to the Next Generation Advanced Propulsion project.
www.airandspaceforces.com www.airandspaceforces.com

The verdict's up for AETP - Air Force has chosen to go with the F135 upgrades rather than the XA100 and XA101.
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such a shame ...
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I can sort of understand where the Air Force is coming from with its decision, but yes, it is a shame nonetheless.
 
I wonder how much it'd cost to integrate? For export versions? Or would the XA100 be considered too sensitive to share with European or Canadian operators? I'm sure some services would value the extra range/efficiency.
 
Avimimus said:
I wonder how much it'd cost to integrate? For export versions? Or would the XA100 be considered too sensitive to share with European or Canadian operators? I'm sure some services would value the extra range/efficiency.
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At what cost - both in $ and loss of commonality?
 
It's an astonishing decision, indeed. AETP was discussed as being upgradable onto the F-35 since its inception.
Although we can understand that the acceleration of NGAD had an impact on its availability for other platforms, a cancelation leaves the F-35 with a single engine supplier for the duration of the program... Probably 50 years. That amount of exclusivity will have an impact on the industry. We have to wonder how decision makers are planning to balance that.

The winners are probably RR and, perhaps, Safran. They now have de-facto an avenue to augment their manufacturing numbers and decrease the astronomical price of their very segmented original host platforms.
 

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