Future Heavyweight Torpedo Development

XRNWEO said:
Beg to differ on hydraulics v electrics for magazine handling. I've owned two different RN systems, which used hydraulics for power motions within the magazine. Electrics inside the magazine limited to low voltage for micro switches. Rationale was to limit stray EM fields, when missiles contained a number of RFI sensitive circuits and initiators. This may change with rare earth DC motors able to work on lower voltages, but I'd still prefer hydraulics for the main motions, albeit with a smart electric controller, rather than lots of small bore pipes and joints. In the UK, all the more recent ships magazines are silo's, so submarine torpedo tubes are the only area requiring power movement of weapons.
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Very true that most if not all missile loadings on vessels are in some kind of silo. The Talos missile loading system must have used lots of hydraulics.
 
So it looks like everyone including the Russians are making 21” the only heavyweight torpedo size. Boring.


Long live the Seawolf tubes!
 
Bruno Anthony said:
So it looks like everyone including the Russians are making 21” the only heavyweight torpedo size. Boring.


Long live the Seawolf tubes!
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There was a SAM.gov post a bit back about larger diameter torpedo tubes for testing. Don't know what happened to it
 
Scott Kenny said:
5) I think the Seawolves are better for opening salvoes, as it can kick out 6 weapons at once and keep 2 in reserve for snapshots. That said, the automated reload system does enable pretty quick reloads.
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Can you/should you fire Mk48s without the wire in order to clear the tubes for faster reload?
 
Scott Kenny said:
But can you fire a Mk48 and immediately cut the wire? yes.
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I suppose in that case the guide wire would be cut before the Mk-48 had fully cleared the tube so that the outer hatch can be immediately closed so the 21" tube can then be purged of seawater for reloading?
 
NMaude said:
I suppose in that case the guide wire would be cut before the Mk-48 had fully cleared the tube so that the outer hatch can be immediately closed so the 21" tube can then be purged of seawater for reloading?
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No, it still needed to wait until the torpedo had left the tube. IIRC there's a hardened cutter on the edge of the shutter door and torpedo tube, so the wire is cut as soon as you shut the outer doors.
 
Scott Kenny said:
IIRC there's a hardened cutter on the edge of the shutter door and torpedo tube, so the wire is cut as soon as you shut the outer doors.
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Neat!

Anyway after the tube has been purged and wire dispenser removed I supposed the used dispenser rinsed with fresh-water, dry and stowed away so that it can be sent back to the manufacturer to be refurbished and refilled?
 
NMaude said:
Neat!

Anyway after the tube has been purged and wire dispenser removed I supposed the used dispenser rinsed with fresh-water, dry and stowed away so that it can be sent back to the manufacturer to be refurbished and refilled?
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I don't recall. I'd hope so. I mean, we reuse the torpedoes multiple times in exercises, so the dispenser would need to be either reused or replaced.
 
Scott Kenny said:
No, it still needed to wait until the torpedo had left the tube. IIRC there's a hardened cutter on the edge of the shutter door and torpedo tube, so the wire is cut as soon as you shut the outer doors.
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It's been a while, but if memory serves there is a way to cut the wire and sleeve at the TMD.
I don't know how often it's done... I've never seen it done as there's zero reason to ever do this unless something janky happens like the muzzle door fails to cut it.

(edit: 'muzzle' not 'breech')
 
tychosis said:
It's been a while, but if memory serves there is a way to cut the wire and sleeve at the TMD.
I don't know how often it's done... I've never seen it done as there's zero reason to ever do this unless something janky happens like the muzzle door fails to cut it.

(edit: 'muzzle' not 'breech')
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Snorkel and bolt cutters?
 
So opposed to an AAM that has wiring connecting it with the launch plane to help in acquiring or being solely dependent on the aircraft link for acquiring, a torpedo’s only comparable connection is through the dispenser mounted wire?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Correct.

An acoustic modem is a very non-stealthy thing.
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I meant acquiring as in the hard wired link on the aircraft b4 launching but I get your point about transmitting under water.

Is the torp ever given enough info after launch to cut the wire quickly and still hope the torp can guide?
Can a torp after wire-cut guide safely without it coming back home?
Is there an equivalent to imaging IR?
 
Bruno Anthony said:
I meant acquiring as in the hard wired link on the aircraft b4 launching but I get your point about transmitting under water.

Is the torp ever given enough info after launch to cut the wire quickly and still hope the torp can guide?
Can a torp after wire-cut guide safely without it coming back home?
Is there an equivalent to imaging IR?
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A lot of this gets into sensitive territory but yes, the torp can search even if the wire is cut or breaks. And if it's in acquisition, it doesn't really need the wire anymore.
 
https://defence-blog.com/u-s-navy-eyes-quick-build-heavy-torpedo/
The Strategic Capabilities Office has issued a new solicitation for the Rapid Affordable Producible Torpedo, or RAPTOR, a next-generation concept for a single-use heavyweight torpedo designed to be produced quickly and at far lower cost than the U.S. Navy’s current inventory.

The RAPTOR Solicitation, identified as SCO-PS-26-01, was released on November 17 and amended on November 21, with offers due by December 17.

According to the notice, the project seeks proposals for “an affordable, rapidly scalable and producible, single-use heavyweight torpedo.” The solicitation is being distributed through the classified Acquisition Research Center.
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then it quotes a bunch from the TWZ article from 2024, then
The solicitation from the Strategic Capabilities Office covers research and development activity under NAICS code 54171. No set-aside is used, and the notice does not specify a place of performance. The Project Solicitation can be downloaded only through the classified ARC website, and the office has directed companies needing access support to contact the ACE Help Desk.

The RAPTOR concept reflects a broader shift toward adaptable and scalable strike options. The Department of War has encouraged industry to explore designs that can be built quickly, with reduced cost drivers and simplified manufacturing demands. If successful, RAPTOR may offer the Navy a way to expand its torpedo inventory without competing with production of the advanced Mk 48 Mod 7.

Heavyweight torpedoes remain central to U.S. submarine operations, and a low-cost option could help maintain inventory levels during periods of high demand.
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Bruno Anthony said:
Is the torp ever given enough info after launch to cut the wire quickly and still hope the torp can guide?
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Yeah. I've joked before that the weapon is smarter than any fire controlman I've ever met and that isn't far from the truth. It's largely autonomous once it's out there and as long as it can get into the neighborhood of a target, it'll hit.
Bruno Anthony said:
Can a torp after wire-cut guide safely without it coming back home?
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Yes, there are a number of mechanisms to prevent this.
Bruno Anthony said:
Is there an equivalent to imaging IR?
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As @TomS mentioned, things get hairy here--but yeah the weapon has multiple means of target discrimination.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
Is the torp ever given enough info after launch to cut the wire quickly and still hope the torp can guide?
Can a torp after wire-cut guide safely without it coming back home?
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Yes, and yes. IIRC the torpedo was pre-loaded with enough to say "enemy is in that direction" and some search motions to have a better luck for finding the target. Pretty basic stuff, since a sub is basically fighting in a 2d plane.

There's an old safety that dates all the way back to WW2 called "anti-circular run" that will make the torpedo shut down when it makes a 180deg turn. Yes, if you're desperate you could turn this off but you're taking your own life in your hands.

There's no IFF under water!


Bruno Anthony said:
Is there an equivalent to imaging IR?
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In theory, yes. It's called acoustic daylight, but it takes a very large number of hydrophones in order to have anything resembling acceptable resolution. Think in terms of YT videos: how good does a 320x240 image look? That's 76,800 pixels. 1 hydrophone basically equals 1 pixel. 1280x960 is 16x that, 1.23million.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Yes, and yes. IIRC the torpedo was pre-loaded with enough to say "enemy is in that direction" and some search motions to have a better luck for finding the target. Pretty basic stuff, since a sub is basically fighting in a 2d plane.

There's an old safety that dates all the way back to WW2 called "anti-circular run" that will make the torpedo shut down when it makes a 180deg turn. Yes, if you're desperate you could turn this off but you're taking your own life in your hands.

There's no IFF under water!



In theory, yes. It's called acoustic daylight, but it takes a very large number of hydrophones in order to have anything resembling acceptable resolution. Think in terms of YT videos: how good does a 320x240 image look? That's 76,800 pixels. 1 hydrophone basically equals 1 pixel. 1280x960 is 16x that, 1.23million.
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Considering the Thales 2076 claims to have 13,000 hydrophones that’s peanuts
 
TomS said:
A new article about the RAPTOR effort. Very little new info, but there is a cost target of $500,000. Compare to $4 million per unit for Mk 48 Mod 7 this year and you can see this would have to be a very simple weapon.

Only way I can see getting there is electric propulsion and very simplified guidance (surface targets only and no wire/fiber).

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/11/u-s-navy-seeks-offers-for-new-heavyweight-torpedo/
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Gunboat diplomacy torpedo
 
Scott Kenny said:
Exactly.

what is allegedly the best sonar in the world isn't even able to do 320x240 acoustic daylight images. You would need six of those Thales 2076 sonars hydrophones just to get 320x240 resolution.
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So it sounds like more tubes the better because keeping the wires intact makes a difference in homing and having torps ready to go gets you more shots in.

So why still using 4 on Virginias. YASENs have 10.
 
Bruno Anthony said:
So it sounds like more tubes the better because keeping the wires intact makes a difference in homing and having torps ready to go gets you more shots in.

So why still using 4 on Virginias. YASENs have 10.
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If you need more than 4 tubes, you are bad at submarining and should probably find a different vocation. Submarine warfare isn't Cold Waters.
 
tychosis said:
Well, from a combat systems perspective (hey, it's a warship and no one matters but us) there are approximately zero things that were carried forward to VA. BSY2 was an abomination and (fortunately) was left in the past where it belongs.
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I mean, the combat system is kinda important to be able to do all the other things a submarine is supposed to do.

I still think that the US should have continued developing 65cm torpedoes (or whatever the large bore Seawolf tubes actually are), and installed the larger (and most importantly LONGER) tubes into Flight II or III Virginias.

There was a weird glitch in the autoloader for the torpedo room that reshuffled the room every midwatch.
 

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