Fun time-travel scenario

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pathology_doc

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Assuming you could guarantee a continuing supply of fuel and other expendables (shells, missiles, torpedoes, spare parts, etc.), how many Leander-class frigates would you take back with you to 1939 in order to win the Battle of the Atlantic? (Exocet and Sea Wolf retrofits not permitted, but Sea Cat and Ikara are.)


Would their fire control technology be an adequate replacement for more heavily-gunned ships in surface warfare?


I am assuming their sensor fits would put the U-boats at a HUGE disadvantage, and Sea Cat would make the job of defending convoys against enemy air attack almost ludicrously easy, but I may be wrong.
 
so pathology_doc you want to ISOT a small fleet of Leander-class frigates ?
That sound so ZIPANG


gut luck the Germans had 1162 U-boats in operation during WW2
 
Surely not 1162 boats all at the same time?

I think you need to define "win". You don't need to sink a u-boat to defeat its purpose, you just have to stop it from getting in position to sink your shipping. In fact, that is basically what happened without any Leanders, so the answer is "zero".
 
Bill Walker said:
Surely not 1162 boats all at the same time?
Click to expand...

There were barely a fraction of the number on station in the mid-Atlantic at any one time. Most boats were either travelling to or from station or were in harbour being refitted. Production rates were quite low for most of the war and then you had Hitler siphoning off large numbers at various times for defensive duties in places like Norway.

Of that 1162, a number would also have been small coastal boats and training vessels. There were also some supply boats and a few sent to Asia to work with Japan out of Penang and to act as blockade runners for strategic materials traded between the two major Axis powers. So, in the end you rarely had many actually actively looking for targets in the Atlantic.
 
Orionblamblam said:
For which side?
Click to expand...


LOL.


Surely one would be enough in 1939. The technology on board and the knowledge of history and science of the crew would be enough to ensure the UK quickly defeats Germany and is dominant global super power for 50 years.
 
The figure of 1162 is the cumulative total for the whole war -- the number operational at any one time was much lower.

In 1939, there were only 50 or so operational U-boats, and the building rate was low (less than 10 per month) until 1941.
 
I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking about things like this. I often wonder how many ak-47s, rounds of ammo and green berets it would take to topple the Roman empire. Drop them off somewhere around the time Hannibal is realising he can't win the war and join/takeover his campaign. Could you half the number if you threw in a few bmp-1s and a few thousand kilos of diesel?.

Would one normally equipped Nimitz class be enough to rule the known western world in 0, 500, 1000, 1500 and 1750 CE?

On topic: having Leanders around with their clever radar/fire control would force the Commerce Raiders not to surface to sink ships as they liked to do. Even after they run out of modern torpedoes their directed guns would be to big a threat. I suppose it would force them not to surface much at all which is a problem because they can't rely on the darkness to surface and recharge the engines. They struggled with that as even the basic ww2 era radar came into play, with semi modern electronics it could be devastating. That's before you start talking about acoustic and other forms of sub surface tracking...

Can anyone give some insight into how an exocet would fare against Bismark level steel armor? The puny pea shooters on board wouldnt be too helpful there.

The ships might end up being as useful as early warning and interception control radar platforms.

I would guess having 3 out in the Atlantic at a time would have a strategic impact on the broader war. Say 6 all up with half at sea at any one time?
 
Abraham Gubler said:
The technology on board and the knowledge of history and science of the crew would be enough to ensure the UK quickly defeats Germany and is dominant global super power for 50 years.
Click to expand...

Small problem: The crew is entirely Irish. They promptly ignore the European war and instead conquer England, planting the Irish flag over the ruins of Buckingham Palace and establish the beginnings of a new Celtic Empire. Friggen' leprechauns *everywhere,* man!
 
phrenzy said:
Can anyone give some insight into how an exocet would fare against Bismark level steel armor? The puny pea shooters on board wouldnt be too helpful there.
Click to expand...

Read a funny quote somewhere back in the day re. Iowas and Exocets. They'd simply send somebody up on deck to sweep the pieces of missile into the sea. ;D
 
If the MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain governments had responded to overt German re-armament with a comparable UK effort could things
like Huff-Duff, Hedgehog and FIDO have entered service far earlier? If so would they have been decisive? It's part of a different sort of time-travel scenario where the past catches up with the future of the past faster than history actually recorded.
 
marauder2048 said:
If the MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain governments had responded to overt German re-armament with a comparable UK effort could things
like Huff-Duff, Hedgehog and FIDO have entered service far earlier? If so would they have been decisive? It's part of a different sort of time-travel scenario where the past catches up with the future of the past faster than history actually recorded.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is what you mean but I think about what if Germany went full resource, Manhattan style, program for the jet engine and from the gt go as a fighter interceptor not a ground attack plane as Hitler first wanted (or the UK did for that matter) and had hundreds flying in 1942 onwards (if that was possible even given a full blown R&D program)
 
phrenzy said:
Can anyone give some insight into how an exocet would fare against Bismark level steel armor? The puny pea shooters on board wouldnt be too helpful there.
Click to expand...

The Exocet would bounce off the belt armour. But some of the early anti ship missiles had large shaped charge warheads specifically designed to destroy armoured belt battleships and cruisers. In which case the shaped charge jet would punch through the armoured belt and then ignite the gun wagen's propellant magazine leading to a huge explosion and no ship.
 
Orionblamblam said:
Small problem: The crew is entirely Irish. They promptly ignore the European war and instead conquer England, planting the Irish flag over the ruins of Buckingham Palace and establish the beginnings of a new Celtic Empire. Friggen' leprechauns *everywhere,* man!
Click to expand...

Nah they'd sell the ship to the highest bidder and retire to Brazil with beer money till death. The Irish national dream.
 
bobbymike said:
I don't know if this is what you mean but I think about what if Germany went full resource, Manhattan style, program for the jet engine and from the gt go as a fighter interceptor not a ground attack plane as Hitler first wanted (or the UK did for that matter) and had hundreds flying in 1942 onwards (if that was possible even given a full blown R&D program)
Click to expand...


Yeah that's very much along the lines of what I was describing though in the case of the UK, ASW/ASuW was a huge, obvious priority given the integral role the Royal Navy played in preserving the British Empire.
 
Abraham Gubler said:
phrenzy said:
Can anyone give some insight into how an exocet would fare against Bismark level steel armor? The puny pea shooters on board wouldnt be too helpful there.
Click to expand...

The Exocet would bounce off the belt armour. But some of the early anti ship missiles had large shaped charge warheads specifically designed to destroy armoured belt battleships and cruisers. In which case the shaped charge jet would punch through the armoured belt and then ignite the gun wagen's propellant magazine leading to a huge explosion and no ship.
Click to expand...

What about something like a P-1000 Vulkan? Supposedly it dives into the water right before impact and *might* hit below the belts I'd think. (Not to mention it's big and fast.)
 
Several missiles also have a selectable terminal popup, which will come down square on the deck armor and quite possibly penetrate that way. Even if it doesn't penetrate, the unspent fuel will create a nasty fire that is very hard to extinguish (since it doesn't even need air for oxidation).
 
Orionblamblam said:
Small problem: The crew is entirely Irish. They promptly ignore the European war and instead conquer England, planting the Irish flag over the ruins of Buckingham Palace and establish the beginnings of a new Celtic Empire. Friggen' leprechauns *everywhere,* man!
Click to expand...


Nope - we immediately start fighting one another, and fight for control of the radio room sos we can tell the world how terrible the other side has been to us.
 
bobbymike said:
marauder2048 said:
If the MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain governments had responded to overt German re-armament with a comparable UK effort could things
like Huff-Duff, Hedgehog and FIDO have entered service far earlier? If so would they have been decisive? It's part of a different sort of time-travel scenario where the past catches up with the future of the past faster than history actually recorded.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is what you mean but I think about what if Germany went full resource, Manhattan style, program for the jet engine and from the gt go as a fighter interceptor not a ground attack plane as Hitler first wanted (or the UK did for that matter) and had hundreds flying in 1942 onwards (if that was possible even given a full blown R&D program)
Click to expand...

They certainly could have come quite close to this, by the time good flying weather started on say March '43 they could have had enough me-262s in the air to completely change the tide of the bombing campaign. Along with that goes more research to fix the alloy problems in the engines to get better longevity out of them and you have a reasonable engine to put in high subsonic boomers that would be very hard to intercept. By 44 Germany had lots of very clever designs, just a shortage of engines to build them and get them into the air. With me-262 equipped jagdgeshwade keeping liberators and lancasters from flattening the aircraft factories they could put some of the crazy designs into serious production. Scary thought, what does D day plus 5 look like without air supremacy or even air superiority? It doesn't win Germany the war but it could buy them a stalemate.
 
phrenzy said:
bobbymike said:
marauder2048 said:
If the MacDonald, Baldwin and Chamberlain governments had responded to overt German re-armament with a comparable UK effort could things
like Huff-Duff, Hedgehog and FIDO have entered service far earlier? If so would they have been decisive? It's part of a different sort of time-travel scenario where the past catches up with the future of the past faster than history actually recorded.
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is what you mean but I think about what if Germany went full resource, Manhattan style, program for the jet engine and from the gt go as a fighter interceptor not a ground attack plane as Hitler first wanted (or the UK did for that matter) and had hundreds flying in 1942 onwards (if that was possible even given a full blown R&D program)
Click to expand...

They certainly could have come quite close to this, by the time good flying weather started on say March '43 they could have had enough me-262s in the air to completely change the tide of the bombing campaign. Along with that goes more research to fix the alloy problems in the engines to get better longevity out of them and you have a reasonable engine to put in high subsonic boomers that would be very hard to intercept. By 44 Germany had lots of very clever designs, just a shortage of engines to build them and get them into the air. With me-262 equipped jagdgeshwade keeping liberators and lancasters from flattening the aircraft factories they could put some of the crazy designs into serious production. Scary thought, what does D day plus 5 look like without air supremacy or even air superiority? It doesn't win Germany the war but it could buy them a stalemate.
Click to expand...

Yes the invasion from the West looks very different without air supremacy. Just watching the show WWII in Color on the History Channel showed how allied aircraft caused two large Panzer formations to take 2 weeks rather than 3 days to make it to Normandy and they both suffered heavy losses from the air. Imagine the formations arrive nearly intact in 3 or 4 days. Would the allies gotten off the beach?

Of course having faced the Me-262 for years under this scenario do the allies even invade Normandy or do they try a southern European strategy?

If the allies are pushed back how much resources could then have been sent east? Could the equipment used in the Ardennes offensive been used against the Soviets?
 
As I recall, the main defensive tactic against the Me262 was to use intruders to shoot them down on take-off and landing when they were un-manoeuvreable and vulnerable. IMHO there's no reason to change this tactic, just deploy more aircraft to meet the increased threat...Likewise, low-flying Typhoons and P-47s in the anti-tank role shouldn't be too vulnerable to the high-altitude optimised Me262.

With me-262 equipped jagdgeshwade keeping liberators and lancasters from flattening the aircraft factories...
Click to expand...

Well, to get the Lancasters you need a night fighter version, production of which cuts into your day fighter numbers, and the USAAF could also switch to night operations, or deploy the B-29...

cheers,
Robin.
 
phrenzy said:
They certainly could have come quite close to this, ...
Click to expand...

They could, IF development would have started at least two years earlier, IF Germany would have
trained a bigger number of aviation engineers and technicians, IF the whole organisation of the
German industry and its control by German authorities would have been completely different,IF
more high qualitiy raw materials still would have been available ....
Quite a number of "IF", but the legend of the Me 262 as "coming too late, because delayed for a
too long time" probably is as hard to kill, as that of the "unsinkable super battleship Bismarck" !
 
It's not quite so many ifs since development did start almost that early and they did have the technicians/engineers.

The only serious if is IF they had the political and military foresight to run with Jets instead of assuming the war was going to be over by Christmas and that they wouldn't need it so let's just keep building bf-109s. I suppose the improved alloys is an if but they could have achieved most of that with the standard bmw abd jumo engines.
 
We're getting off topic here, but IF German jet development had been properly accelerated and high-performance medium-heavy bombers (i.e. one or two steps above the Ar234) had been available in large numbers, one might imagine work on missiles such as those featured in BSP4 to have been accelerated and prioritised in response.
 

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