France Fights ON - La France continue la guerre

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You may have heard of the project - or not.

Since 2006 the sum of work has been truly colossal, and it carries on 16 years later.
- one website https://1940lafrancecontinue.org/
- one forum https://1940lafrancecontinue.org/
-2 books
Part 1 https://www.amazon.fr/1940-France-avait-continué-guerre/dp/B00EU77CIM
Part 2 https://www.amazon.fr/1941-1942-Fra...bf-a24f-10289be774b8&pd_rd_i=B00J2NTZMK&psc=1
Part 3 is coming.

- 1 comic book, 3 volumes

- some spinoffs - https://www.lulu.com/shop/-crixos/la-petite-guerre/paperback/product-1jn6rj4q.html

Except all this was in French language, and the language barrier can be a major obstacle.

Yet - recently one brave fellow, God bless his noble soul, has started a translation, head-on. AH.com (for once !) made itself useful.

 
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The POD is June 6, 1940.

Reynaud was not a defeatist, OTL he fought to the very end, June 16, before throwing the towel - and unfortunately, Pétain picked up the slack and the shame of Vichy happened. Like it or not, Roosevelt was kind of right when he was noting that, as far as international laws went, Vichy was legally stronger than Free France.

Pétain and Laval, those SOBs, had taken special care and great pains to snatch the "legacy" of the defunct 3rd Republic (1870-1940) , with a parliamentary vote in July 1940 (it was a joke, but it was unfortunately enough). Something De Gaulle, a nobody in London, could not do.

In passing, De Gaulle himself in 1944 had to pass special laws to essentially declare Vichy "nul and void".

It was one of the poisoned legacies of the June 22 armistice and what followed: Vichy carried more representative weight that Free France, to De Gaulle great dismay. Roosevelt (among many others) fell into that deadly trap.

The FTL proposes to reverse the respective weights of OTL defeatists (Laval & Pétain, that led to Vichy) and Free France (De Gaulle). This, with a POD before Reynaud throws the towel on June 16. But for Reynaud not to open that door for Pétain, something has to be done to Reynaud himself, because if he goes away, Pétain picks up.

Bottom line: De Gaulle influence over Reynaud was blocked by two key people.

- First, his top advisor (and defeatist) Paul de Villelume. https://fr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Paul_de_Villelume?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr

- Second, his mistress: Hélène de Portes. Sorry to be crude, but she quite literally hold Reynaud by the testicles - and France along it. Without any sexism, she was a bit of shrew, and not very smart, and defeatist and armistice-groupie. So she was essentially used by De Villelume, Weygand, Pétain and the coming Vichy / armistice faction to influence Reynaud... to their cause. And since May 16, Reynaud moral slowly but surely hit rock bottom...

OTL poor De Portes died in a car wreck late June 1940 as she and Reynaud, no longer PM, were fleeing toward the Mediterrenean coast, after the armistice. The driver was Reynaud, and he survived.

So, in a rather pragmatic (if not cynical) way, the POD is: Hélène de Portes gets her lethal car wreck three weeks earlier, early June 1940; and without Reynaud at the wheel.

And so it starts. https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-france-fights-on-english-translation.524901/

June 6, 1940 in the afternoon: De Gaulle, fresh of his mixed success at Abbeville late May, has just entered politics in a new Reynaud government.

Reynaud is there, at the Elysée palace, and so are De Portes and De Villelume. The latter proposes to drive De Portes back after the ceremony.

And the car crashes, killing Reynaud mistress and (obviously) ruining De Villelume influence over Reynaud. "You killed the wife of my life, you idiot. go away, I never want to see you again."

Fun facts: the authors once told me they wanted to crash the car under the Alma tunnel, like... you know, "a candle in the wind, 1997 blah blah" - but felt it was a bit over the top.

And voilà, killing two birds with one stone: goodbye, pair of defeatists. Reynaud is first distraught, then a free man. The effects are felt one week later near Tours: the defeatist faction led by Pétain tries to pull out their OTL armistice / Vichy thing, but are beaten back. In passing, Pétain (aged 84) blows an aneurysm and will not die in 1952 but some years earlier than OTL... in September 1940.

Still, Pierre Laval being Laval, some kind of cut-down Vichy will still happen, called NEF: Nouvel Etat Français (no need for translation).

But France will not capitulate on June 22 and on the Loire river; rather, on August 8 and on the Mediterranean coast, near the Spanish border.

Seven weeks later: it has been meticulously wargamed back then. And well, right from June 15, 1940, the motto is"everything but the kitchen sink, to Algiers and north africa."

The fraction of the army that is obsolete will be used to slow down the german onslaught. Everything else, of any value will be carried to North Africa by boat or by plane. The government, the gold, the bank, the money, the parliament, the industry, the armies, the SNCF, Air France... whatever it takes to carry on the fight until 1944-45.

One (merciful !) early OTL casualty is the Mers-el-kebir bloodbath. There is no point in gunning down the french fleet when the said fleet keep on fighting the (unfortunate) italians in the Med and elsewhere.
 
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To keep France in the game the British will throw whatever they can to assist this.
 
As I understand it Churchill would have agreed with Zen
 
In passing, the said italians are definitively screwed much earlier than OTL, particularly in North Africa. There the fight is over, not in May 1943 pushing back the Afrika Korps into the sea in Tunisia.
But in October 1940, with the anglo-french pushing the same italians into the sea weeks and months before Rommel AK ever cross the Mediterranean sea to save their rear ends, in February 1941... no time for that.

OTL the Commonwealth forces in late January 1941 came very close from anihilating the italians in North Africa, but Rommel turned the tide. Without Rommel and with the massive French Armies of North Africa on the Commonwealth side, the italians are DOA long before the AK is ever thought and deployed.

Rommel "Afrika Korps" will become the "Albania Korps" (less glorious, ain't it ?) because all the blood shed OTL in the desert will be instead spilled a) in the Mediterranean sea and b) in the Balkans: all the way from Albania to Yugoslavia to Greece, but not Crete.

Because those German paratroopers that OTL died in Crete will meet their fate on another island in the Mediterranean, same size: Corsica !

Hell yes, if metropolitan France falls, Corsica should, but would need its own Merkur or Sea Lion... and we all know how 1940 Germany sucked at amphibious operations.
Bottom line: Corsica doesn't fall in August 1940 like continental France... but instead will pick the role of OTL Crete, that is: grave of german paratroopers.
Unfortunately, if they die en masse in Corsica in February 1941, they can't be used in Crete the following May... Corsica certainly falls in March 1941,but the germans and italy are bled dry.

Greece, Albania and Yugoslavia are as toast as OTL, but the german advance in the Mediterrenean sea will go no further. And with Crete surviving, the Bomber Command, backed by those 120 French B-24 Liberators bought before June 1940, can start bombing Ploesti (Blowlamp !) a bit earlier (and easier) than OTL. Hitler's oil supply is in trouble much earlier...
 
As I understand it Churchill would have agreed with Zen

And Churchill needed Reynaud, because, whatever the man flaws, he was legally and since March 1940, France PM.

[Doctor Who mode ON]
So Reynaud needed to grow a spine; and to do that, we had to remove the two defeatist influences that were his close advisor and, well - his mistress. So we packed them into a car and wrecked the car. That's the POD.
[Doctor Who mode OFF]

:D
 
To keep France in the game the British will throw whatever they can to assist this.

Since March 1940 Reynaud and France had a pact with the British to carry on fighting whatever happened. OTL Vichy wiped their asses with it, and things like Mers-el-Kebir and Dakar happened as result.
That was pretty ugly...

I have a personal theory about Pétain. He had been France first ambassador to Franco's Spain, in April 1939 and for a year. We all know that Franco resisted and manipulated even Hitler to keep Spain out of the Axis and WWII - until 1943 when he started leaning, cautiously, toward the Allies. And was rewarded for that cautiousness after the war and until 1975, unlike Mussolini (for example). Same for Salazar, in passing. Those two lasted 30 more years as result of NOT picking a side in WWII, or just being cautious.
Pétain probably thought to achieve something similar with Vichy ("we are neutral now ! NEU-TRAL !") , except that couldn't work for many reasons
- and he miserably failed, btw.
a) France had fought Germany before June 1940, so it was part of WWII until WWII ended, whether it wanted it or not. Spain was not.
b) Free France had picked up the fight.
c) the Germans were occupying and humiliating France, not Spain.
d) Pétain and Laval deliberately collaborated, throwing 80 000 jews under the Nazi bus just to "apease" Adolf.

So no, Vichy could never be a "neutral" like Switzerland or Sweden - or Salazar and Franco (and fuck Eric Zemmour, in passing, because that's HIS theory - "Pétain created Vichy France as a neutral to wait for the Anglo-Américans, and De Gaulle free french, to come pushing back the Germans". Yeah, sure, moron. And that "neutral" sacrificed 80 000 jews just to keep Hittler quiet and happy. I need to vomit. Fucker.)
 
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We are revisting the entire WWII, theater by theater of operations. It is just crazy and overwhelming. Currently we are at April 1944 - and we are lucky the war is a touch shorther FTL than OTL.

(FTL: Fantasque Time Line)

Fantasque relates to two separate things.
First, it's a ship.

And it became the pseudonym of one of the TL three founding fathers - this man, who is hardly a nobody, at least on this side of the Channel)

We have some amazing talents, really. One is pretty brave: he is tackling, head-on, all the horror stories of the SS in central europe. And adapting that horror to the FTL, obviously without any complacency. Because some people obviously will never change, and the FTL is neither a "best case" or a "wank" - or the world of teletubbies. Let's say that 90% of OTL WWII bloodbath still happens, by the same people. Even if the war is (mercifully) shorter.


Fun fact: De Villelume was born in Riom, the very place were in 1942 Vichy France made a (bogus) trial of the 1940 political and military losers... and had to stop the said trials, and they found themselves as guilty as the people they wanted to trial.

Also, during WWI the same De Villelume was a prisonier at the same place were De Gaulle was prisonier later - they missed only by weeks. Talk about fate or karma... !
 
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We are revisting the entire WWII, theater by theater of operations. It is just crazy and overwhelming. Currently we are at April 1944 - and we are lucky the war is a touch shorther FTL than OTL.

(FTL: Fantasque Time Line)

Fantasque relates to two separate things.
First, it's a ship.

And it became the pseudonym of one of the TL three founding fathers - this man, who is hardly a nobody, at least on this side of the Channel)

We have some amazing talents, really. One is pretty brave: he is tackling, head-on, all the horror stories of the SS in central europe. And adapting that horror to the FTL, obviously without any complacency. Because some people obviously will never change, and the FTL is neither a "best case" or a "wank" - or the world of teletubbies. Let's say that 90% of OTL WWII bloodbath still happens, by the same people. Even if the war is (mercifully) shorter.


Fun fact: De Villelume was born in Riom, the very place were in 1942 Vichy France made a (bogus) trial of the 1940 political and military losers... and had to stop the said trials, and they found themselves as guilty as the people they wanted to trial.

Also, during WWI the same De Villelume was a prisonier at the same place were De Gaulle was prisonier later - they missed only by weeks. Talk about fate or karma... !
Nice to see this is continuing, one of the most well-researched TLs ever.
 
We need help for 1944, you can pick any theather of operations OTL: we are re-doing ALL of them.
 
That's a lot to read, can you just link to where you want to start?
 
I'm so glad this project is still going and will be translated to English. Also hoping the spinoff - FFO-APOD, gets back up and running some time. The amount of work that has gone into it is inspiring.
 
I'm so glad this project is still going and will be translated to English. Also hoping the spinoff - FFO-APOD, gets back up and running some time. The amount of work that has gone into it is inspiring.

Yes, there was a schism circa 2009 with Mark Bailey, unfortunately. Although it was amicable. One unfortunate side effect was some confusion between FFO and APOD, aggravated by the language barrier. Just for the record, because of the "schism" APOD is not an english translation of FFO - at least not since 2009. They have a common "core" between 2006 and 2009 but were already diverging.

I've asked what are the most pressing needs and what contributions would be welcomed. Of course spinoffs are always welcome.
 
From memory, on the air war side we are looking for volunteers to re-write the anglo-american heavy bombing campaign from 1943 onwards. I'll check with the "founding fathers".
 
Confirmed: most urgent need is to "re-write" (in the FTL frame) the bombing campaign on Germany, 1943-45.
 
It's an excellent timeline that i got aquainted with some time ago, kudos to the dedicated writers, i found very useful info there, but... imo it's just too optimistic re the the first couple of years. If FFO another 6 weeks, i can't see any sort of BoB taking place, maybe just night bombing in autumn, but not a daylight campaign. There is simply no time to rest the Luftwaffe, and specially replace the higher than OTL losses. Hows much will they loose in extra 6 weeks?

If Corsica is still in french-british hands, the germans will focus to bomb the place during the autumn anyway, i don't know realistically how soon would they will be ready to invade, maybe autumn, maybe early 1941 as you say.

As to Italy, with the large french forces in NA, they definitely do not attack Greece imo (i don't know what will happen with Yugoslavia later on), they will redirect resources, troops, planes etc to NA, The germans will send help in the autumn if the italians look to be in difficulty, so imo i think it's unlikely the italian are kicked out of NA just two months after the french evacuation, the french troops will need time to rest, reorganize, rationalize etc etc and i don't see them going on the offensive straight away.

But what this means is the germans will have to send more troops in NA compared to OTL, they might temporarily prioritize NA in 1940-41 so as to stabilize the Axis situation, maybe push the french into Tunisia or Algeria etc, and the bitish into Egypt, but not as far as OTL. Possibly go for Malta too despite the losses. So it will be some hard couple of years for the french in NA. In turn, this would mean some noteworthy reduction in the troops, planes, tanks etc for Barbarossa, with all the butterflies that implies. Do i recall correctly that FFO supposes Barbarossa is delayed until 1942? I find this highly unlikely tbh, one if so then NA will have the full attention of the germans and there is the real risk the french troops will be destroyed (they have only what they evacuated and few options to replenish their losses, and they are entirely dependent on the americans and british for arms, fuel, supplies etc.), and the germans may be reaching Suez, and two the soviets would be much better prepared in 1942 and Hitler knows that. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation for Hitler (and a very valuable french contribution), if he focuses to clear NA completely from the much stronger french-british force he can't attack USSR in 1941 and they are much stronger in 1942, so likely he chooses the OTL option, do enough to keep the french and british at bay, and hope for a quick victory in USSR.

This of course is not to minimize the impact of FFO, they will tie a large number of german troops with comensurate losses in men and material, the navy will significantly contribute in the Med and Atlantic, they will contribute to secure NA months in advance once the americans join the war in 1942, in turn weakening the german troops in the east so reducing soviet losses proportionally, maybe the germans suffering even bigger defeats at places like Moscow and Stalingrad (if they get that far) etc etc. Italy may be invaded months early in 1943, and once Overlord happens (possibly a bit earlier too? maybe doubled by an invasion in the south of France) there's a good chance the war might end up a good several months early. And above all for France, it will retain l'honeur intact, again with all the butterflies that implies.

But that's my 2 cents anyway.
 
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No problem with that, you wonder whether Benny the Moose still attacks Greece in 11 1940. I'll check the reasons why. Don't underestimate Benny appetite for doing stupid things ust to try and impress Adolf. Greece was exactly that.
Yes, Barbarossa is postponed by 11 months, to May 17 1942 (which corresponds OTL to a major German spring offensive, Barbarossa year 2).

What was your pseudo at FFO ?
 
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I wouldn't have thought that there would be much of a North African campaign at all.
Operation Compass was a huge success, with the French conducting any kind of offensive pressure threatening Tripoli Italian forces would collapse and with Tripoli and Benghazi captured that only really leaves Sirte as a major port. Plus with French and British aircraft interdicting Axis convoys from North Africa and Malta and Corsica if it was held still, would take a heavy toll, as would the French and British fleets. Germany would find it hard to send anything and Hitler might not even agree to pull Mussolini's chestnuts out of this fire.
Italian Libya might be carved up even before Churchill's stop order to reinforce Greece. Even if not, I think a combined Anglo-French nutcracker would have done the job. Graziani facing a two-front threat would have given up sooner I think.


And then the war takes a completely new dimension. The Balkans will still fall but Hitler now has no North African/Suez distractions from Barbarossa.
Italy is upset at losing its Empire and now firmly second fiddle as garrisoning Balkans and providing cannon fodder for Barbarossa. Italy would never carry out Crete/Corsica/Malta operations on its own and after Crete Germany's airborne arm is weak.

The bigger problem is what the Allies DO. Not to be too revisionist but Britain spent 1940-43 largely focused on the tiny North African coastal strip in see-saw battles with some, quite frankly lacklustre performance and cock-ups (I'm ignoring the benefits of more resources for Far East just yet). The Americans in 1942 want Torch to be an invasion of France. Britain, rightly, having been kicked several times, warns them the Germans are tough cookies. Here there is no strong counter argument, the 8th Army and French troops can't sunbathe for 2-3 years doing nothing. France might support Marshall and push a French invasion in 1942. Britain can't just fob off the task and point to Bomber Command scattering bombs around Germany as the only offensive effort.
So the choices are Torch in this TL becomes:
a) invasion of France from Britain (Roundup)
b) invasion of France from French NA (1944 Dragoon)
c) invasion of Italy/Greece (outside choice but Britain would probably stick to its Med first strategy).

a) sounds like a bloodbath waiting to happen
b) perhaps a bit easier but no easy task
c) unlikely to happen

And if a Roundup had been a flop (lack of amphibious capability, lack of experience, lack of battle hardened troops, lack of air superiority) or at worst Dieppe 10x worse then the whole Allied campaign would be set back well into 1944 or even 1945 with greater reliance on strategic bombing. The Americans might even waver on Germany first. Churchill says "told you so" and ends up picking off Aegean Islands, maybe Sicily in 1943-44. Forcing Italy out might become the number one goal as OTL.
Even if Roundup or Dragoon leads to a toehold, it will be bitter fighting. It might relieve the Eastern Front situation but I don't honestly think the American Army of 1942 or the British Army of 1942 (minus the OTL experience of Rommel's beatings) is capable enough in terms of fieldcraft, tactics, equipment and leadership to break out and actually retake France.
 
French Wikipedia has an honest to god summary up to 1941.

c) invasion of Italy/Greece (outside choice but Britain would probably stick to its Med first strategy).

Bingo. That's what happens in April 1942. Just like North Africa OTL, it becomes a massive meat grinder and keep the Wallies busy for 1942, as they learn the hard way how NOT to fight the Germans.
Invasion of Sicily happens in September 1942.
 
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Invasion of Italy early could trigger the collapse and switching sides. It was frankly a lot closer than some realise as it was, and without German forces in Italy already, the swap could be total.

Intel lacked a complete picture (Italian codes weren't Enigma) and ironically German involvement actually increased the intelligence picture.
 
That's what happens: Italy flips late 1942. Overall, FFO tried to stick to OTL level of plausability - except some months earlier per lack of North Africa theater. Greece and Italy essentially fills most of 1942 and the first half of 1943.

OTL Vichy France and North Africa had to be fought first, before Italy - and AFAIK there was no massive amphibious ops in Greece ?

Here, North Africa doesn't need to be won against Vichy France, so it is kind of replaced with Greece, and then Sicily - Italy is the next logical target.
 
I realize typing this that we lack a clear TL summary with the key dates and amphibious ops.

Up to June 5 and the German offensive against the (frail) Weygand line, WWII as per OTL.

And then...

June 6, 1940: POD

June 13 1940, near Tours (Cangiers): the defeatist faction led by Pétain is swept away.

August 8, 1940: last battles near the spanish border (Banyuls, Collioure)
- Pétain blows an aneurysm and will die in september
- Laval and the rest of the gang create the NEF (in Paris, not Vichy, as France is 100% occupied... minus Corsica !)
- Reynaud, De Gaulle and everything but the kitchen sink has been moved to Algiers, so Laval's NEF rules ruins.
France fights on.

September 1940: A shorter BoB

October 1940: Italy is defeated and swept away from Africa. There will be no Afrika Korps.

February-March 1941: battle of Corsica. Germany and Italy prevails, at a hairbreadth and at horrible cost: LW and RM are decimated.

April-May 1941 : Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece fall but NOT Crete - because the German paratroopers have been decimated over Corsica.

With heavy bombers free to be based in Crete to bomb the shit out of Ploesti, Hitler push back Barbarossa by 11 months to May 1942.

December 7, 1941: Pearl Harbor doesn't move. Because France weight in S.E Asia and the Pacific is peanuts, even FTL (broken back).

February 27, 1942: CRUSADER. First big amphibious op against Greece, but it gets bogged down in a meat grinder.

May 17, 1942: Barbarossa FTL. USSR is better prepared, and the WM will never reach Moscow and even less Stalingrad...

September 18, 1942: TORCH (FTL !) against Sicily.

November 1942: Mussolini ousted, Italy flips.

December 1942: Germany counter-attack, Mussolini and Salo Republic established (or something very close)

September 18, 1943: DRAGOON, D-day in southern France

May 1944: OVERLORD, D-day part 2, same place as OTL (Normandy)

That's were we presently stands.
 
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On the Pacific / S.E front French Indochina makes a minor but interesting difference, standing in the path of the Japanese onslaught. This ricochet to Singapore and Corregidor, although both remain heroic but crushing defeats. Unlike OTL McArthur doesn't makes it alive, he dies at Bataan along his soldiers.

The French, with the help of the Vietnamese, bleed the Japanese dry, guess where in Indochina ? Dien Bien Phu, obviously.

Battle of Coral Sea never happens, Midway and Guadalcanal remain. There are a bit more battleship brawls than OTL, Mark Bailey took care of this early in the story.

China takes a whole different turn: Chang prevails against Mao, who kicks the bucket. Cold War will be markedly different.
 
With heavy bombers free to be based in Crete to bomb Ploiești, Hitler push back Barbarossa....
Hmmm..... unlikely methinks. Assuming that the heavy bomber campaign has to have results prior to late June-41 to push back Barbarossa?

Lancasters are not yet in service. A handful of developmental birds may be available but would amount to little. Liberators are Mk.Is "unsuited for combat over western Europe". Mk.IIs in early-42 earliest? Stirlings utterly unsuited.

Halifax Mk.I could make the distance (say 1400 miles round trip with tight margins). According to a graph in Second to None, at an AUW of 55,000lbs a Mk.I series 2 can haul a little north of 9000lbs at 216mph that distance which is respectable for the era. However there are only 25 of those (84 Mk.Is total) and certainly not all of that number will be made available. What is more, Halifax raids had only begun in March-41 and early raids seem to comprise more often than not of 6-ships.

Ultimately, Ploiești in mid-41 is ambitious going towards foolhardy with only penny-packets of suitable aircraft available. That said, Barbarossa can still be pushed back due to Corsica and the retention of Crete will make Ploiești a very tempting target by mid/late-42.

ETA: I suppose there is nothing to stop you from having a "proving raid" that does little damage but spooks the German high-command types into thinking there is more here than meets the eye. I would still rule out any kind of sustained campaign though.
 
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I realize typing this that we lack a clear TL summary with the key dates and amphibious ops.

Up to June 5 and the German offensive against the (frail) Weygand line, WWII as per OTL.

And then...

June 6, 1940: POD

June 13 1940, near Tours (Cangiers): the defeatist faction led by Pétain is swept away.

August 8, 1940: last battles near the spanish border (Banyuls, Collioure)
- Pétain blows an aneurysm and will die in september
- Laval and the rest of the gang create the NEF (in Paris, not Vichy, as France is 100% occupied... minus Corsica !)
- Reynaud, De Gaulle and everything but the kitchen sink has been moved to Algiers, so Laval's NEF rules ruins.
France fights on.

September 1940: A shorter BoB

October 1940: Italy is defeated and swept away from Africa. There will be no Afrika Korps.

February-March 1941: battle of Corsica. Germany and Italy prevails, at a hairbreadth and at horrible cost: LW and RM are decimated.

April-May 1941 : Yugoslavia, Albania, Greece fall but NOT Crete - because the German paratroopers have been decimated over Corsica.

With heavy bombers free to be based in Crete to bomb the shit out of Ploesti, Hitler push back Barbarossa by 11 months to May 1942.
Leaving aside my problem of how Greece joins the war,it was supposedly persuaded to attack the Italians in Albania IMS, which I find borderline ASB without a LOT of persuasion (immediate handling over of Crete anyone? ) and how the Germans managed to break through the Olympus, Thermopylae and the Corinth canal in the face of actual resistance by multiple dug in corps sized formations... how is a large bomber campaign kept in supply before the opening of the Mediterranean, which effectively means taking Sicily?
 
Operation Coronation / Couronnement

April 13, 1941 London and Algiers -

Casablanca - A staff conference decided to prepare the operation
"Coronation". Two squadrons of the RAF equipped with
Stirling heavy bombers will move towards the Mediterranean. From
the air force began to receive its Consolidated 32s (B-24 Liberators for the Americans)
Liberator for the Americans) purchased in 1939. A new bomber wing
the 60th EB, was created for the 120 heavy bombers being delivered.
being delivered.

6 May, Operation Coronation - The heavy bombers
Stirling I of Sqn 7 and 15 of the RAF left England for Casablanca,
then reach Maleme airfield, Crete, via Algiers and Benghazi.
Meanwhile, the French 60th Heavy Bombardment Wing, on
Consolidated 32, also moved towards Crete.

13 May Operation "Coronation" - Taking off from Crete, 36 Short
Stirlings and 36 Consolidated 32s (B-24s) attacked the oilfields and refineries
refineries of Ploesti (Romania). The air defences were totally surprised
and the attackers lost only one aircraft. The
bombing is done as in the exercise, on targets too beautiful to miss
to miss, and the installations of the Creditul Minier are seriously damaged.
damaged.

- The second raid of "Coronation" launched against Ploesti
against Ploesti was opposed by Romanian and Bulgarian fighters.
But these are old PZL-24s. None of them even managed to get close to the
Consolidated 32, which fly too high, and those which can catch up with the
Stirlings are pushed back by the powerful defensive armament of the
bombers. However, German Bf 110s intercepted the raid on the way back
on the way back, destroying 3 Stirlings and 2 Consolidated 32s.

15 May
Bulgaria - The heavy bombers of "Coronation/Couronnement
targeted the marshalling yards of Sofia and Plovdiv in order to disorganize
the Wehrmacht's logistics chain. The attack of Plovdiv surprises
the Bulgarian air defense and obtained a great success. The raid
on Sofia hits its objective hard, but the German fighters shoot down
four Stirlings and seven others are seriously damaged.
 
Leaving aside my problem of how Greece joins the war,it was supposedly persuaded to attack the Italians in Albania IMS, which I find borderline ASB without a LOT of persuasion (immediate handling over of Crete anyone? )
I'll ask how was Greece convinced to attack in the first place...
and how the Germans managed to break through the Olympus, Thermopylae and the Corinth canal in the face of actual resistance by multiple dug in corps sized formations...

how is a large bomber campaign kept in supply before the opening of the Mediterranean, which effectively means taking Sicily?



Bomber campaign ain't that large. See above: three raids in May 1941, and then it stops until September. The Anglo-French & Greek takes a very severe beating at Limnos against the Luftwaffe. Until spring 1942 the situation in the Greek islands is very precarious.
 
Yeah, that's not gonna work.... look at post 3 of the thread below for @EwenS schooling me on B-24 availability.

In May of '41, the RAF had a maximum of 26 Liberators, the majority fit for transport duties only, the remainder giving useful service with Coastal Command only after a spell of work at Scottish Aviation. The A&AEE rightly black-flagged them for bombing missions. The mission-capable out-of-the-box Liberators only begin arriving much later in '41. I don't believe the PoD can push Consolidated to deliver B-24s months earlier, not that many. Even if you do contrive an early delivery of LB-30s, numbers will be light and the crews will not be nearly as mission-capable as their mounts - not immediately.

I don't have a lot of resources on the Stirling (must remedy that) but in Putnam's British Bomber since 1914, the Stirling is described as scarcely able to climb over the Alps on missions against northern Italy, it's fuel load impacted it's service ceiling so much. An arbitrary Biggin Hill - La Spezia isn't far off of a Crete-Ploiești mission radius. A Stirling would struggle in both cruising speed and ceiling on such a mission. The Mk.III was better but that was introduced in 1943. Also, in the timeframe in question, 7 & 15 were the only squadrons equipped with the Stirling. It strains credulity that both would be deployed. Far more likely at least one would be held back to hold channel ports/Brest under threat.

The contents of post#28 are simply unrealistic in the absence of some hidden PoD(s). If realism is being strived for, then that section has to either be pared back or pushed back.
 
Crete to Ploesti is c700 miles as the crow flies. About 100 miles more than Cambridge to Berlin.

The "best" version of the B-24 available in 1941 is the version the French ordered in 1940 and taken over by Britain and re-armed with power turrets. The LB-30. Service ceiling was 24,000ft due to the use of non-turbocharged engines.
www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_5.html

To understand some of the difficulties of early heavy bomber operations in the Middle East, take a look at the "HALPRO" mission from Egypt to Ploesti in June 1942 using some of the earliest of the much improved B-24D model. The distance involved was about 50% greater than your proposal, but most of the other problems they encountered remain for your plan. Poor navigational skills (See how many Bomber Command aircraft could navigate acurately in the period?), weather forecasting at distance for example.
www.codenames.info/operation/halpro-i/

Another option is of course the HP Halifax which flew its first operations in March 1941 but was still only available in small numbers.
 
* Consolidated 32 LB-30MF (B-24 Liberator)
– Contrats n° AF-7 du 04/06/40 et 141 du 15/06/40 : 165 appareils, dont 30
spécialement adaptés à la reconnaissance maritime.
– Commande de janvier 1941 : 120 avions de type B-24C. Ces avions seront livrés
dès mars 1942.
To prove I read it if nothing else.....

If the 120 B-24s mentioned are from this first line item, I'm not sure there are 120 B-24s in existence full-stop by May-41, certainly not combat-coded ones and I'm not sure there ever can be. If the 120 B-24s are from the second line item, they are certainly at least a minimally combat-capable model and the timeline is much more reasonable but they are far too late for the op in question!

The rest of that document is interesting but does create the impression of I'll take a little bit of this, a little bit from here, ooo I like that plane, without addressing the fact that France - in it's deleterious and depleted (for now) condition - cannot be all things in all roles as the more intact allies can. It will have to make choices and pick which roles to throw in with.

PBY, PBM, Duck, Goose, Sunderland, *some* MR Liberators, Walrus AND Hudson? France receiving 1200 Bostons, during and after their work up of an eventual 800 Marauders strikes as quite astonishing really. Mitchells too! The several hundred North American trainers? With scant resources, surely they would just get in on the existing US/Commonwealth training pipelines? Of course, with the numbers involved here, the Free French will have to have entire Commonwealth/Eagle squadrons or else have hundreds of newly-delivered warplanes gathering dust in North African airfields whilst the training pipeline catches up. Once I got to the hundreds of Corsair, Avenger and Dauntless and realised fallen France had more combat power than the Fleet Air Arm is when I think I finally, belatedly moved my brain into popcorn-flick mode. It's entertainment - don't overthink it.

There is obviously going to be a reluctance to re-write this long-standing timeline which is understandable but that does then raise questions as to what the purpose is here. I have my suspicions that you don't really want critical advice - you want plaudits (and I'm not singling you out here @Archibald, I'm talking about a general FFO collective here and perhaps this section full stop! It's human nature). I'm not going to waste my time signing up there and be the insta-outsider given the cold shoulder, or worse but I'm more than happy to discuss the limited aspects of this timeline within my grasp *here* if there is any interest? Of course, I'm also happy to take my ball and go play on the motorway, as my Dad would put it.
 
Oh please, I'm not that kind of internet psycho. I'm willing to admit criticism.

Sticky point: I'm not one of the TL founding father, back in 2006. Most importantly - WWII and warfare are not my era of expertise.

Bottom line: I'm not the best person to argue about the choices made. To "sell" it.

I'd suggest that (if you are willing to, or if you have enough time on your hands - I don't force anybody !) to register there and start a discussion, including in english. There are some people there who are far better than my little self to explain the choices made in 2006 and since then.

No offense taken, and thank you for "mettres les formes" (translation here - https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/mettre+les+formes.html)
 
I don't think you're a psycho! Well, only as much as I am. That comment was just as much directed at myself. I never seem to be able to give anyone the answer they want. [Tears hair out Homer style].

You don't have to sell it. I'll happily concede it's a great work. Just that document gave me a bit of a "woah, dude" moment. The main result of this discussion though is I am really regretting not having that Airfix B-24 I had *ages* ago!
 
I expressedly said "Internet psycho" - also called trolls - flame wars, those kind of things.
 
France - in it's deleterious and depleted (for now) condition - cannot be all things in all roles as the more intact allies can. It will have to make choices and pick which roles to throw in with.
I forget if in FFO there was some change to the development timeline of the B24, but one thing I would point out (if I may), is that the French very handily got their gold and foreign currency reserves out of France before the collapse. It was a lot of Money. Financially, the 'broken backed France' of the FFO timeline is in better condition to continue the fight than the UK, which in June 1940 was already less than 9 months to a financial crunch. I have a potted account of French gold movements:

French Gold 1939 - 40

In September 1939, France had 2 430 tons of gold. Three hundred tons had already been sent to the United States. The remainder was moved out of Paris to 51 hiding places located at various Atlantic and Mediterranean ports.

On 11th November 1939, 100 tons (4 billion 760 million Francs) was sent to Canada, followed soon afterwards by another 100 tons. On 12th March 1940, another 147 tons (7 billion Francs) was sent.

At the same time, in the hope of securing Turkish sympathies France sent 57 tons of gold to Turkey.

After the German attack, the aircraft carrier Béarn left Toulon on 17th May with 194 tons of gold. On the 21st May, the cruisers Jeanne-d’Arc and Emile-Bertin left Brest with 200 tons. The four ships reached Halifax on 1st June.

Also during this time, a steamer, the Pasteur left Brest for Canada with 213 tons of gold, including hundreds of rare items.

On 3rd June, the auxiliary cruiser Ville d’Oran left Brest for Bordeaux with 212 tons of gold. It was expected that it would travel on the American cruiser Vincennes, but at the last moment, the Americans realized that their Neutrality Act prohibited them from transporting the gold of a belligerent country on an American warship.

The Ville d’Oran unloaded its cargo in Casablanca before going back to Brest.

On 12th June, the Emile-Bertin went from Brest to Halifax with 254 tons of ingots and gold coins. It arrives on the 18th, at Halifax this was the greatest quantity of gold transported on a single journey by any navy up to that time.

18th June, three hours before the entry of the Germans into the port, a convoy made up of transport El Djezair, El Kantara, El Mansour, Ville d’Oran and Ville d’Algiers left Brest with 1200 tons of gold for Casablanca, where it arrived on 21st June. It was the largest gold convoy in history. This gold was then stored in Dakar, with 200 tons of Belgian gold and 75 tons of Polish gold.

OTL Gold price in constant US$ per ounce.

1940 = 34.50
1941 = 34.50
1942 = 34.50
1943 = 36.50
1944 = 36.25
1945 = 37.25
1946 = 38.25
1947 = 43.00
1948 = 42.00
1949 = 40.50

1 US ton = 32,000 ounces.

So the total (with the Belgian and Polish gold) amounted to roughly US$3.26 billion. That’s a significant war chest.
 
I forget if in FFO there was some change to the development timeline of the B24, but one thing I would point out (if I may), is that the French very handily got their gold and foreign currency reserves out of France before the collapse. It was a lot of Money.
I'll leave the B-24 development timeline for now as I'm into broken record territory! Thank you for that info. It explains the kid-in-a-candy-store shopping list. I still have doubts re manning, production timescales and whether the producing nations might have any demand for their products for themselves at any point in a total war but that does help explain a lot.

I expressly said "Internet psycho" - also called trolls - flame wars, those kind of things.
I've never thought you're that either.
 
France - in it's deleterious and depleted (for now) condition - cannot be all things in all roles as the more intact allies can. It will have to make choices and pick which roles to throw in with.
I forget if in FFO there was some change to the development timeline of the B24, but one thing I would point out (if I may), is that the French very handily got their gold and foreign currency reserves out of France before the collapse. It was a lot of Money. Financially, the 'broken backed France' of the FFO timeline is in better condition to continue the fight than the UK, which in June 1940 was already less than 9 months to a financial crunch. I have a potted account of French gold movements:

French Gold 1939 - 40

In September 1939, France had 2 430 tons of gold. Three hundred tons had already been sent to the United States. The remainder was moved out of Paris to 51 hiding places located at various Atlantic and Mediterranean ports.

On 11th November 1939, 100 tons (4 billion 760 million Francs) was sent to Canada, followed soon afterwards by another 100 tons. On 12th March 1940, another 147 tons (7 billion Francs) was sent.

At the same time, in the hope of securing Turkish sympathies France sent 57 tons of gold to Turkey.

After the German attack, the aircraft carrier Béarn left Toulon on 17th May with 194 tons of gold. On the 21st May, the cruisers Jeanne-d’Arc and Emile-Bertin left Brest with 200 tons. The four ships reached Halifax on 1st June.

Also during this time, a steamer, the Pasteur left Brest for Canada with 213 tons of gold, including hundreds of rare items.

On 3rd June, the auxiliary cruiser Ville d’Oran left Brest for Bordeaux with 212 tons of gold. It was expected that it would travel on the American cruiser Vincennes, but at the last moment, the Americans realized that their Neutrality Act prohibited them from transporting the gold of a belligerent country on an American warship.

The Ville d’Oran unloaded its cargo in Casablanca before going back to Brest.

On 12th June, the Emile-Bertin went from Brest to Halifax with 254 tons of ingots and gold coins. It arrives on the 18th, at Halifax this was the greatest quantity of gold transported on a single journey by any navy up to that time.

18th June, three hours before the entry of the Germans into the port, a convoy made up of transport El Djezair, El Kantara, El Mansour, Ville d’Oran and Ville d’Algiers left Brest with 1200 tons of gold for Casablanca, where it arrived on 21st June. It was the largest gold convoy in history. This gold was then stored in Dakar, with 200 tons of Belgian gold and 75 tons of Polish gold.

OTL Gold price in constant US$ per ounce.

1940 = 34.50
1941 = 34.50
1942 = 34.50
1943 = 36.50
1944 = 36.25
1945 = 37.25
1946 = 38.25
1947 = 43.00
1948 = 42.00
1949 = 40.50

1 US ton = 32,000 ounces.

So the total (with the Belgian and Polish gold) amounted to roughly US$3.26 billion. That’s a significant war chest.

Very much that, yes. Cash and carry, then Lend lease - as done by the british.

Also the extensive pool of french aeronautical engineers (the Bloch, Potez, Dewoitine, Servanty, Amiot - countless others from at least 15 if not 20 companies) is dispatched across the entire world to help here and there - as much as possible. USA, Great Britain obviously - but also much more exotic places, such as Australia, Argentina...
Because obviously it is not possible to build any aircraft in North Africa, not even the wooden VG-30 series, alas.
The industry is either non existing or just not up the task (hail the goddam colonization: pillaging the land resources, yes, build perene infrastructures and an educated local population ? no way !)

One of the major positive side effects down the line is that the rather complacent 3rd Republic can see first hand the poor shape of that Algeria colony that welcomed them. Also a certain ...resent by the locals. You know, the very resent that OTL blew into France face between 1954 and 1962, a misery still felt today at many levels.

Except those locals in Algiers have now saved France ass when the German invaded the Metropole. This is worth an improved status for the Algerian locals. No ? Some more rights maybe ? more equality ?

Bottom line: being knee deep into the Algerian misery makes the French government think a little and offer some much needed concessions to the locals. Some years after, the Algerian war will be avoided...
 
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... not even the wooden VG-30 series, alas...

Just curious, did that migration of French aeronautical engineers include to Québec? That would seem an obvious place outside of France to build VG-30 series fighters. [1]

I'm not sure what species of Épicéa were used in the construction of the VG 30 series - I'm guessing tree-farmed Picea abies (Norway Spruce)? Québec has commercial White Spruce (Picea glauca aka Epinette blanche). Neighbouring New Brunswick has Red Spruce (Picea rubens). And both provinces had/have French-speaking populations (le joual and acadjonne, respectively).

The Arsenal 'family' could also be improved with North American wood species - eg: substitute spars of long-fibred Sitka Spruce (Picea sitchensis) shipped east by rail from British Columbia. Going further out on a developmental limb, what about redesigning the Arsenal fuselage for a simpler Weldwood or Duramold process? [2]

_____________________________

[1] I guess the obvious candidate for North American production would've been the Allison-powered VG-32?

[2] The VG-30 series construction roughly followed the Duraloid process - with its final fabric covering over the outer wooden skin. (Oddly, Arsenal skinned the fuselage formers on both the exterior and interior surfaces - perhaps indicating concerns about veneer quality?) That extra step of varnished cloth covering had been abandoned by the Weldwood and Duramold processes.
 
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