FMA IA 36 Cóndor

[masimaes]

this plane would have revolutionized air travel. With it being faster than a de havilland comet. What do you get when you mix nazi engineering, british engines, and argentinian ambition. one of the most weirdest planes ever. the FMA 3A 36 condor. with 6 engines in the rear of the fuselage, this plane would have stolen the comet's glory for being the fastest jetliner. With it flying 20% faster than the de havilland comet, this plane could have took the world by storm. however, with its deadly design and flaws, it was never meant to be. the fma 36 condor was destined to be a mid range jetliner, for argentina's national airline, argentinas aerolineas. Its most striking feature was its multi engine configuration, with an annular inlet. the planes engine concept was very dawn at the time. in the 1950s the dawn of the jet age saw an advot of super large composite engines that were believed to have excellent reliability. the result would be an supreme propulsive and aerodynamic aircraft. the condor was believed to have a max speed of 590mph or 950km/h. that's impressive comapared to the de havillend comet 3 which could only fly at 485mph. meaning that the condor would have been 20% faster than the comet if it had been mass produced. the plane would have an estiamted range of 396 miles, with only 38-41 passengers in a single aisle configuration. work on the condor began in 1951 and by 1953 they had a full scale wooden mockup. the designer was curt tank, the same man who designed nazi aircraft such as the focke wolf 190,ta 152 among others. But the condor had many problems. those who had the time to look over tanks design thought that from the outset it was riddled with promblems. the saftey implications of passengers enveloped in a battery of engines, how exactly far back did the passenger cabin go, because the section behind the intakes would have been very dark, windows would have been useless in that area due to it being wrapped by the engines. that's just the beggineing of passenger experince. imagne sitting in what was effectively a ring of engines, the noise would have been deafening, now add up the super hot area in the back in the engies. now what would they call that section that was loud, dark and hot? Super econmy perhaps? talk about the flight from hell. the condor design was problematic, so what happend to the project. as with many things in argentina it was a polictal upheaval that led to its demise. the new dictaror got rid of curts brainchild. the condor was no more. nevertheless if the condor had worked, argentina would have been placed on the map for jet aviation, and they would have had something that they were very proud of. for one thing, it would have been the first jetliner designed and built in latin america, for another, it would have revolutionized jet engine design as we know it back in the 1950s. could you imagine american airlines flying the condor with the 727 being placed on the backseat? however in the end, it was probably a good thing that this scary airplane was never mass produced.

 

[riggerrob]

Since the cutaway drawings shows the last row of passenger seats at the wings' front spar .... I have not idea why you wasted so much time speculating about cramped seats too close to the engines.
From passengers' perspective, Condor would have been as noisy as a Caravelle .... ho hum! ... yawn! Caravelle was not very noisy ... as heard from passenger seats.
We wonder if all those RR jet engines were powerful enough to quickly climb over the Andes mountains.

Condor would also have competed with AVRO Canada's Jetliner, DH Comet, French Caravelle and Tupolev 104.

 

[masimaes]

thanks for your opinion

 

[masimaes]

Since the cutaway drawings shows the last row of passenger seats at the wings' front spar .... I have not idea why you wasted so much time speculating about cramped seats too close to the engines.
From passengers' perspective, Condor would have been as noisy as a Caravelle .... ho hum! ... yawn!

Condor would also have competed with AVRO Canada's Jetliner.

thanks for your opinion, but the caravelle was quieter than most jets back in the day. due to its engine being on the rear.

 

[masimaes]

Since the cutaway drawings shows the last row of passenger seats at the wings' front spar .... I have not idea why you wasted so much time speculating about cramped seats too close to the engines.
From passengers' perspective, Condor would have been as noisy as a Caravelle .... ho hum! ... yawn!

Condor would also have competed with AVRO Canada's Jetliner.

because the back section was meant to have no windows

 

[riggerrob]

Dear masimaes,
Please do not take my criticisms personally.
Rather I was being harsh towards the www.youtube.com poster who wasted too much time speculating about non-existent seats aft of the wings.
You repeated some of his foolishness, but also added some cutaway drawings that dispelled his foolishness.
In the end, I respect "masimaes" more than I respect the original youtube poster.

 

[masimaes]

oh

Dear masimaes,
Please do not take my criticisms personally.
Rather I was being harsh towards the www.youtube.com poster who wasted too much time speculating about non-existent seats aft of the wings.
You repeated some of his foolishness, but also added some cutaway drawings that dispelled his foolishness.

 

[masimaes]

thanks

 

[masimaes]

i guess?

 

[dan_inbox]

In the comparison with the Comet, one should maybe take into account the economics side:
with 50% more engines it would cost significantly more to buy,
with more engines + faster, the fuel consumption should be much higher.

 

[masimaes]

In the comparison with the Comet, one should maybe take into account the economics side:
with 50% more engines it would cost significantly more to buy,
with more engines + faster, the fuel consumption should be much higher.

thanks for the reply,

 

[masimaes]

In the comparison with the Comet, one should maybe take into account the economics side:
with 50% more engines it would cost significantly more to buy,
with more engines + faster, the fuel consumption should be much higher.

thanks for the reply,

the condor would only have 5 engines so the 10% more engines

 

[dan_inbox]

the condor would only have 5 engines so the 10% more engines

I thought it was 6 engines. My bad.
Still, that's 25% more engines.

 

[riggerrob]

the condor would only have 5 engines so the 10% more engines

I thought it was 6 engines. My bad.
Still, that's 25% more engines.

The under-lying problem was that early jet engines were weak, but consumed fuel at rapid rates.
In comparison, the Avro Canada 102 Jetliner had 4 Rolls Royce Derwent engines, each producing barely 3600 pounds of thrust each, but it burned far too much jet fuel to be economical.
Later commuter jets (e.g. Boeing 737, Douglas DC-9, etc.) standardized on only a pair of turbo-fans. Turbo-fans were more economical because of their lower fuel consumption.

 

[masimaes]

the condor would only have 5 engines so the 10% more engines

I thought it was 6 engines. My bad.
Still, that's 25% more engines.

The under-lying problem was that early jet engines were weak, but consumed fuel at rapid rates.
In comparison, the Avro Canada 102 Jetliner had 4 Rolls Royce Derwent engines, each producing barely 3600 pounds of thrust each, but it burned far too much jet fuel to be economical.
Later commuter jets (e.g. Boeing 737, Douglas DC-9, etc.) standardized on only a pair of turbo-fans. Turbo-fans were more economical because of their lower fuel consumption.

it was to have rolls royce radial turbojets. which the british at the time was making very effeicent turbojets. it was planned to have far more effeicent engines in the future.

 

[masimaes]

@riggerrob​

to reply, it was planned to have turbofans in the future.

 

[Motocar]

Greetings Masimaes, reading your comments about the old project of Argentina Cóndor, I will make the following observation regarding what you assert about the dangerous, noisy and lack of visibility of the passengers located there, it is good to remember that this motor arrangement was correct given the little push of the Rolls Royce Nene engines, using 5 units and not 6 as I read, the deHavilland Comet used 4 only four deHavilland Gosht units in its initial versions, located inside the planes (arrangement that reduced volume for fuel) the FMA IA -36 Cóndor lacked more support and continuity both politically and technically.
Continuing with the motor layout of both the Caravelle, and the Boeing 727, they placed turbojet engines in its rear part, the Boeing assembled 3 units with acceptable noise levels in the cabin, later they incorporated the first turbofan engines in Western aircraft (This honor falls to the Tu -124 which was the first to use turbofan). Finally, I will tell you that it was I who made that first and very speculative cutaway that you saw fit to present on this topic. Currently there is a short video that shows some very good digital cuts. Here I share the link. Greetings Motocar

View: https://youtu.be/QQYdRy1-Q6k


Cutaway Caravelle turbofan engine

 

[iverson]

The design seems impractical to me. The air intakes do not look like they would be adequate. And how would heat and acoustics affect the rear fuselage around the exhaust area? How many Nenes have to be working to maintain altitude?

 

[Foo Fighter]

Thanks, Motocar, much appreciated. Great cutaway and video presentation.

 

[masimaes]

Motocar thanks for the reply, but, i got inspiration for this thread off of that video.​

 

[Motocar]

Greetings masimaes, It happens that many times we read and watch videos from the same sources at different times, in my case it is made difficult by the language and the times, I still thank you for dedicating your time to creating a topic about the forgotten FMA IA-36 Condor

 

[masimaes]

Greetings masimaes, It happens that many times we read and watch videos from the same sources at different times, in my case it is made difficult by the language and the times, I still thank you for dedicating your time to creating a topic about the forgotten FMA IA-36 Condor

anytime

 

[Cjc]

Frankly the 5 engines and associated matanince and fule costs would more then wipe away any economys gained from the faster plane. Still wish argintina had bilt a few though because the design looks awesome, but it wouldn't have been profitable for anyone.

 

[riggerrob]

Frankly the 5 engines and associated maintenance and fuel costs would more than wipe away any economies gained from the faster plane. Still wish Argentina had built a few though because the design looks awesome, but it wouldn't have been profitable for anyone.

It had 5 engines because that was all that was available.
Consider that both the deHavilland Comet and AVRO Canada C102 jetliner were both powered by sets of 4 jet engines. Four engines proved un-economical for the Jetliner, so it never entered service. Given better corporate support, the Jetliner Mark I would only have been built in small numbers, but a Mark 2 would have been powered by a pair of larger, more fuel-efficient jet engines. Eventually, later versions of the C102 might have competed directly with DC-9 and Boeing 737. Again, pure speculation on my part.

 

[Cjc]

Frankly the 5 engines and associated maintenance and fuel costs would more than wipe away any economies gained from the faster plane. Still wish Argentina had built a few though because the design looks awesome, but it wouldn't have been profitable for anyone.

It had 5 engines because that was all that was available.
Consider that both the deHavilland Comet and AVRO Canada C102 jetliner were both powered by sets of 4 jet engines. Four engines proved un-economical for the Jetliner, so it never entered service. Given better corporate support, the Jetliner Mark I would only have been built in small numbers, but a Mark 2 would have been powered by a pair of larger, more fuel-efficient jet engines. Eventually, later versions of the C102 might have competed directly with DC-9 and Boeing 737. Again, pure speculation on my part.

So 4 engines proved un economic for anyone, and they al move to two as soon as they could, meaning 5 engines still would have killed any interest in this design.

 

[riggerrob]

Frankly the 5 engines and associated maintenance and fuel costs would more than wipe away any economies gained from the faster plane. Still wish Argentina had built a few though because the design looks awesome, but it wouldn't have been profitable for anyone.

It had 5 engines because that was all that was available.
Consider that both the deHavilland Comet and AVRO Canada C102 jetliner were both powered by sets of 4 jet engines. Four engines proved un-economical for the Jetliner, so it never entered service. Given better corporate support, the Jetliner Mark I would only have been built in small numbers, but a Mark 2 would have been powered by a pair of larger, more fuel-efficient jet engines. Eventually, later versions of the C102 might have competed directly with DC-9 and Boeing 737. Again, pure speculation on my part.

So 4 engines proved un economic for anyone, and they al move to two as soon as they could, meaning 5 engines still would have killed any interest in this design.

Yes, but they needed 5 early engines to climb over the Andes. It was many decades in the future before twin-engines were powerful enough to fly those routes.

 

[Erdosain]

I.A. 36 Cóndor Renderings ​

 

[Cjc]

Dose anyone know the diameter of the plane at the air intakes?

 

[Cjc]

I wonder if the condor had been biult and in service before the 707 if it could have had even some success? It wouldn't have had much copitition thanks to the comets issues, and maybe it could have had some success in hot and high climates (then again those places weren't exactly economic hot spots in the 50's)

 

[Erdosain]

Meet the FMA IA Condor #dehavilland #argentine #aviation #aviation4u #aviationenthusiast #oldaircraft #aeroplanes #rollsroyce #jetengine #classicaircraft #classicplanes #avionics #aviationgeeks #aviationlovers #aviationdaily #aviationlife #aviations

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[AE220]

I wonder if the condor had been biult and in service before the 707 if it could have had even some success? It wouldn't have had much copitition thanks to the comets issues, and maybe it could have had some success in hot and high climates (then again those places weren't exactly economic hot spots in the 50's)

How do we know if the Condor suffers from the same metal fatigue issues of the comet though?

 

[riggerrob]

How do we know if the Condor suffers from the same metal fatigue issues of the comet though?

Fatigue depends more upon the quality of tooling and the quality of workmanship.