Fiat CR.42 with Daimler-Benz - some questions

Silencer1

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Hi!

As far as I knew, the fastest biplane in the world was Fiat CR.42DB, equipped with 1200 hp DB-601 engine.

The speed of 525 km/h is amazing, so I'd like to learn some details about:
1) origins of the project (is this just a record-breaker or a prototype for next version of popular Fiat fighter?)
2) similar biplane projects of another Italian companies (if such ones have existed?)
3) the circumstances of record' establishing.

Thanks in advance!
 

Justo Miranda

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From"Warplanes of the Second World War"-FIGHTERS-Volume Two
by William Green
Macdonald 1961
and
"Dimensione Cielo" vol.1
Edizioni Bizzarri 1970
 

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Jemiba

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Ah, Justo was faster ! ;)

According to Green/Swanborough "Fighters of the world" it was the prototype
for a proposed series. That's stated by other sources, too, and it is said, that
there was no series production, because the DB engines were in quite short
supply and should be spared for more modern types.
Speed of the CR.42DB (or CR.42B, as it is often designated) is given as 510 km/h
up to the mentioned 525 km/h.
(photo from "Fighter of the world")
 

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Skybolt

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There were two other biplanes project with a DB-601 by Aeritalia-FIAT, both by Celestino Rosatelli, the "biplane man". One is a two seat version of the CR-42 DB, designated "R", from 1941. The other is a previously unknown (until now, I mean... ;D B) ) CR-35, from 1939, that was even more streamlined than the CR-42 DB, and that probably would have been even faster. Dead ends, anyway, includìing the philosophy of air combat that was the raison d'etre of the fixation of Regia with biplane fighters.
 

airman

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There was also Caproni 165 ,but his engine was an Isotta Fraschini
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.165

there was also a project of Caproni 175 with an isotta fraschini of 1000 Hp.

ps:Caproni 165 was a loser competitor with CR.42
 

Silencer1

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Hi, Skybolt!

Thank you for mentions of this two project.
I'm just found CR-35 on the forum. What a streamlined beast!*-)
Perhaps, there where slightly larger picture somewhere?

There is one more question (very offtopic) - why Italia turns to German engines in the end of 1930th?
How it became in country, which produce very advanced engines for Schneider' cup racers. And then - only mid-power air-cooled engines... Both radial and inline, but limited in power.

Cheers!
 

Silencer1

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Just found two-pert article about FIAT activity in engines and aircraft before WW2 "Fantasmi di aerei e motori Fiat dal 1935 al 1945" in "Ali Antiche" magazine (№ 106 and 107).
Lot of projects - and among them two side elevations of Rosatelli' biplane fighters with water-cooled engines.
CR-35 - first attempt to incorporate DB-601 - later lead to CR.42DB prototype.
CR-42R - recce version of the CR.42DB
 

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Motocar

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Just to illustrate leave the link to the cutaway in free interpretation:

http://s25.postimg.org/hy0jumwe5/cutawayfiatcr42db610efa.jpg
 

Silencer1

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Motocar said:
Just to illustrate leave the link to the cutaway in free interpretation:

Thank you, dear Motocar!
But for me this drawing more resembles Fiat CR.32.

Keep up the good work!
 

Motocar

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When they did not have further details ...! but now with these side cuts can retouch and make it more reliable
 

Silencer1

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Motocar said:
When they did not have further details ...! but now with these side cuts can retouch and make it more reliable

In my humble opinion, the oil radiator, placed in upper frontal position is a detail, that should be repositioned.
It's the thing, making the nose of aircraft very similar to CR32 and distracts streamlined shape of CR42DB.
Perhaps, adjusting the cutaway in this area could made it more realistic?
 

Motocar

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Silencer1 said:
Motocar said:
When they did not have further details ...! but now with these side cuts can retouch and make it more reliable

In my humble opinion, the oil radiator, placed in upper frontal position is a detail, that should be repositioned.
It's the thing, making the nose of aircraft very similar to CR32 and distracts streamlined shape of CR42DB.
Perhaps, adjusting the cutaway in this area could made it more realistic?

If I have time ... maybe touch!
 

Motocar

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Photo Fiat CR.42 DB-601
 

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Silencer1

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Thank you Motorcar for the image!

Could it be further development of DB-equipped FIAT fighters - now, in monoplane configuration? :cool:
The line has later supplemented by Gabrielli low-wing fighters...
 

papacavy

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I also read somewhere (don't remember where) of a FIAT CR.32 with either a JUMO engine, radial engine or a Kestrel or some Rolls-Royce engine. I seem to remember that it was a Hungarian modification, with a proposal for local production. Anyone else heard of this? Any drawings available (even if they are speculative)?
 

blackkite

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Hi! Ca.165, loser competitor of CR.42.
Ca.165's ancestor was a Ca.134 fighter.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19186.0;attach=562734;image

Ca.165.
http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/ca165.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.165
"A unique feature of the Ca.165 was the retractable radiator, which the pilot could deploy for optimum performance, or retract depending on the flight conditions: completely open in climbs, or closed in level flight and dives. In this way, it was similar to the Morane-Saulnier M.S.406. When deployed, the radiator significantly increased the drag on the aircraft, but increased engine performance and reliability.
Specification of the Ca. 165
Wing span, m 9.30
Length, m 8.10
Height: 2.80 m
Wing area: 21.40
Mass, kg
empty aircraft 1855
normal takeoff 2425
Engine type 1 Isotta-Fraschini L121 POA RC40
Power, HP 1 x 900
Maximum speed, km/h 466
Cruising speed, km/h 405
Range, km 672
Rate of climb, m/min
Service ceiling, m 10000
Crew, PRS 1
Armament: two 12.7-mm machine gun synchronous Breda-SAFAT MACHINE GUNS"

What is the bottom aircraft which had a fixed radiator?
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Fiat CR.42 three side view drawing.

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/cr42.html

http://alternathistory.com/opytnyi-istrebitel-fiat-cr-42db-italiya

MAIN TECHNICAL CHARACTERISTICS OF CR.42 DB
Type: a fighter
Manufacturer: Societa Anonima Aeronautica FIAT, Turin
Wingspan 9.70 m
Length of 8.80 m
Height: 3.35 m
Wing area: 22.40 m ²
Empty weight 1950 kg
Take-off weight of 2730 kg
Maximum speed at an altitude of 4500 m 520 km/h
Climb to a height of 3000 m: 3.3 m
5000 m 5.6 m
6000 m 7.0 m
Service ceiling 10600
Flight range 710 km

http://www.alieuomini.it/catalogo/dettaglio_catalogo/fiat_cr_falco,15.html

https://oldmachinepress.com/2016/07/13/fiat-cr-42-db-fighter/

Two seater(CR.42R) side view.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8074.0;attach=555349;image
 

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blackkite

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Hi!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHj4JNj13bo
 

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