Extraterrestrials: Hope or Threat

[zen]

Ok where is all the 'good stuff'?
As in high up the atomic weight, where we predict there is an 'island' of stable atoms well above Uranium.

Well where you'd find all the other heavy stuff....

And that's the stuff you might be interested in.

Somewhere in the heart of planets of course!

Of course you could just blow stars up instead......bit messy. People tend to complain about that sort of thing.

So a nice little rocky planet no one wants looks like prime extraction territory.
.. .
What do you mean "what about those life forms on the surface"?
He'll give 'em enough chance and they'll be competing with us for the good stuff.

 

[Fluff]

'if it doesn't eat gravitonium its not living'

 

[Archibald]

I'd guess that an encounter with a technologically superior alien species is likely to have a similarly disruptive effect on human society, even if they aren't intentionally hostile.

I have no intent when I accidentally stand on an ant hill, but from their perspective its pretty incomprehensible. Accidents happen, we just don't want Earth to be a part of a minor border skirmish....or a Hyperspace bypass...

As is often the case, the path was blazed in this line of thinking quite a long time ago. In this particualr instance, H.P. Lovecraft's cosmic indifferentism pretty much covers it:

Though cosmicism appears deeply pessimistic, H.P. Lovecraft thought of himself as neither a pessimist nor an optimist but rather a "scientific" or "cosmic" indifferentist,[15] a theme expressed in his fiction. In Lovecraft's work, human beings are often subject to powerful beings and other cosmic forces, but these forces are not so much malevolent as they are indifferent toward humanity.[16] This indifference is an important theme in cosmicism. The noted Lovecraft scholar S. T. Joshi asserts that "Lovecraft constantly engaged in (more or less) genial debates on religion with several colleagues, notably the pious writer and teacher Maurice W. Moe. Lovecraft was a strong and antireligious atheist; he considered religion not merely false but dangerous to social and political progress."[17] As such, Lovecraft's cosmicism is not religious at all, but rather a version of his mechanistic materialism. Lovecraft thus embraced a philosophy of cosmic indifferentism. He believed in a meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe that human beings, with their naturally limited faculties, could never fully understand. His viewpoint made no allowance for religious beliefs which could not be supported scientifically. The incomprehensible, cosmic forces of his tales have as little regard for humanity as humans have for insects.[18]

Though personally irreligious, Lovecraft used various "gods" in his stories, particularly the Cthulhu-related tales, to expound cosmicism. However, Lovecraft never conceived of them as supernatural, but extraterrestrials who understand and obey a set of natural laws which to human understanding seem magical. These beings (the Great Old Ones, Outer Gods and others) — though dangerous to humankind — are portrayed as neither good nor evil, and human notions of morality have no significance for these beings. Indeed, they exist in cosmic realms beyond human understanding. As a symbol, this is representative of the kind of universe that Lovecraft believed in.[19] Though some of these beings have - and in some cases create - cults to honor them, to the vast majority of these beings the human race is so insignificant that they aren't given any consideration whatsoever.

It would not take an alien intelligence much developent beyond the merely human to become not just contemptuous of us, but functionally oblivious to our existence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmicism

+2
And the present wave of populism won't really help our case, with all the dumbarses popping everywhere, every single week, since 2016 or so. Dutertre, Bolsonaro, Salvini, Orban, DJT, Gilbert Collard and Robert Menard (Albert Connard, too) ... so many others.

 

[fredymac]

Let us hope we do not meet aliens who can not comprehend or accept the existence of alternative cultural and behavioral philosophies and react with hostility and contempt.

 

[Rickshaw]

If you want to get a view of what an alien might look like, look at an octopus. Completely different structure and morphology from vertebrates, multiple brains, and surprisingly smart, especially considering that they don't live long.

Saw a lovely documentary the other week. A scientist and his daughter kept a pet octopus in their living room for a couple of years. When they put the TV on it would plaster itself against that side of the tank and bug its eyes out so it could watch. If it wanted the daughter's attention it would goosh her up the armpit.
The thinking cortex of its brain is structured very similarly to ours despite our last common ancestor being a simple flatworm and the neuron physiology being very different. Brilliant example of where convergent evolution does and does not happen.

There was a case a few years ago of an Octopus which was being held in an Acquarium which would escape from it's tank, crawl across to another tank and eat the fish, escape from that tank and crawl back to it's own tank. The Aquarium owners were mystified what was eating the fish and so they put in cameras and caught it in the act. The Octopus could work out how to get out of it's tank, cross the intervening space and get into the other tank simply by watching the humans. I believe Octopi are much under rated for their intelligence and could be an actual alien species...

 

[CJGibson]

You might like to read 'Other Minds by Peter Godfrey-Smith'.

I spend hours watching octopodi in Greece. Very smart.

Chris

 

[steelpillow]

It's been shown, I think in the Great Barrier Reef, that there are Octopus communities.

Yes. Scientists believe that intelligence evolves as a consequence of social interactions in complex communities. The puzzle with the octopus is that it has always been understood as a loner, so how could it have had the opportunity to evolve intelligence? These Great Barrier Reef communities at last tell us how - the aforementined TV program showed some of them mock-wrestling together, or emerging from their burrows and high-fiving each other before heading off in different directions.

 

[steelpillow]

Just come across "Roadside Picnic", originally written in the 1970s, where aliens arrive and stay only for a few days, leaving behind a scatter of hi-tech rubbish. Many artefacts have powerful and far-reaching effects based on incomprehensible technologies. We are like rodaside animals who emerge after the aliens have left, start checking out the litter, and get caught up in the consequences of the casual picnic.

BTW, I once wrote an SF short about an octopus who was abducted by aliens - i.e. by us.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Perhaps it is time for the only animals in our care should be for breeding programs only. How we can protect natural habitats is another question I hope we can address.

 

[steelpillow]

Perhaps it is time for the only animals in our care should be for breeding programs only. How we can protect natural habitats is another question I hope we can address.

At present, the best way to preserve a species is to find a commercial use for it: food, medicine, clothes, whatever. Farmers are better at breeding and protecting than gamekeepers and naturalists are, and their work is self-financing. Some are coming to appreciate that this applies to whole habitats as well.

But what is a "natural" habitat? Apart from a handful of small patches, the habitable parts of the globe have all been shaped by the hand of man for thousands of years. Scratch the floor of the Amazon or African rainforests and you find vast networks of lost ruins, signs that the area was once widely cultivated. Yes we need to stop killing Nature off, but what we sustain for the future may need to be radically different from what we found there in the past - if it is to survive global warming for example.

Given our propensity for overpopulation and environmental destruction, we are a far greater threat to ourselves than any alien.

 

[Foo Fighter]

Global warming is one of those things we should do something about delaying or halting.

 

[steelpillow]

Global warming is one of those things we should do something about delaying or halting.

Don't get me started. The first computer predictions emerged in the 1970s, based on very simple energy-flow models. They have proved remarkably accurate. The time to stop it in its tracks was the 1980s and early 90s. If we continue to do nothing, the amount of CO2 we have already pumped into the atmosphere will heat us to extinction in a couple of thousand years or so. Temperatures will not return to natural levels for ca 5,000. It is possible that algal blooms and suchlike may speed this process, but not by much. But all this doomsday stuff is too sensationalist for even the gutter journalists to face up to, everybody's kneejerk reaction to it is ridicule. I have spent half a century watching those stupid grins slowly fade. Now at last that terrible evil thing "populism"* is on my side and some hope returns. I support today's young generation of environmental warriors 110%.

* Populism is just a derogatory term for a democratic decision you disagree with. America voted for Trump, the UK voted for Brexit. Wet liberal socialism can mock reality but it cannot hide it (I speak as a card-carrying Liberal going back those same 50 years). Mind you, I do find the appeal of Nigel Farage as the Lizard King, soon to split his human skin and emerge as his true self, to be rather appealing. Trump has already begun - that orange crest is already breaking through the top of his head. It's true, the aliens are already here and it is already too late. Maybe their home planet is a toasty 35-plus degrees average and that is why they have driven us to where we are.

 

[Fluff]

Perhaps it is time for the only animals in our care should be for breeding programs only. How we can protect natural habitats is another question I hope we can address.

At present, the best way to preserve a species is to find a commercial use for it: food, medicine, clothes, whatever. Farmers are better at breeding and protecting than gamekeepers and naturalists are, and their work is self-financing. Some are coming to appreciate that this applies to whole habitats as well.

But what is a "natural" habitat? Apart from a handful of small patches, the habitable parts of the globe have all been shaped by the hand of man for thousands of years. Scratch the floor of the Amazon or African rainforests and you find vast networks of lost ruins, signs that the area was once widely cultivated. Yes we need to stop killing Nature off, but what we sustain for the future may need to be radically different from what we found there in the past - if it is to survive global warming for example.

Given our propensity for overpopulation and environmental destruction, we are a far greater threat to ourselves than any alien.

Lets hope their monitoring post on Pluto misses this post, I don't want to be commercialised.

 

[uk 75]

With all the talk of life on new planets and comets from outside the Solar System I thought it would be fun to debate which of the Hollywood tropes for alien visitors is most likely: ET, Independence Day, The Day the Earth , or Alien.

The Andromeda Strain.

.

As a rider is it true that one of the first TV images from our planet heading out into space is Hitler?

Yes. However: the likelihood of ET picking up the '36 Olympics is next to nil. The power of those broadcasts was real low, and the signal would have dropped *far* below the background noise level long before getting even to Proxima Centauri. IIRC, the theoretical limit for detection of even modern TV signals is something like a lightyear, maybe two.

DEW line radars, however, could be picked up meaningful distances away. There's no message in them, however.

Orion thanks for laying that one to rest. Pity as I have been quoting it since the 70s. Blame Carl Sagan's Cosmos.
But thanks to all of you for coming back and making this a fascinating thread.
Comments about aliens and politics require this response. She would be a great candidate for upcoming UK and US elections:

Diana (1983-85)

This article is about Diana of the original series. For Diana of the new series, see Diana (2009 series). Diana was the second-in-command of the Visitor Earth fleet and an experienced scientist at the time of the First Invasion. She ascended through the ranks on Earth, having murdered her...

v.fandom.com

 

[Fluff]

With all the talk of life on new planets and comets from outside the Solar System I thought it would be fun to debate which of the Hollywood tropes for alien visitors is most likely: ET, Independence Day, The Day the Earth , or Alien.

The Andromeda Strain.

.

As a rider is it true that one of the first TV images from our planet heading out into space is Hitler?

Yes. However: the likelihood of ET picking up the '36 Olympics is next to nil. The power of those broadcasts was real low, and the signal would have dropped *far* below the background noise level long before getting even to Proxima Centauri. IIRC, the theoretical limit for detection of even modern TV signals is something like a lightyear, maybe two.

DEW line radars, however, could be picked up meaningful distances away. There's no message in them, however.

Orion thanks for laying that one to rest. Pity as I have been quoting it since the 70s. Blame Carl Sagan's Cosmos.
But thanks to all of you for coming back and making this a fascinating thread.
Comments about aliens and politics require this response. She would be a great candidate for upcoming UK and US elections:

Diana (1983-85)

This article is about Diana of the original series. For Diana of the new series, see Diana (2009 series). Diana was the second-in-command of the Visitor Earth fleet and an experienced scientist at the time of the First Invasion. She ascended through the ranks on Earth, having murdered her...

v.fandom.com

As a teenager, I'd have volunteered for Diana's bed, even if she did eat me after.

I guess that makes me surseptible to our current visitors.

Re the DEW line, no signal, true, but thats like saying a flashlight isnt a signal - freq, repetition, and direction - all are a signal.

 

[sferrin]

A computer/statistics education is not the best of starting points to make an educated guess at the likelihood of life emerging anywhere. The boffins at the biochemistry faculty have a better grasp of the processes involved. Even they would turn to astrophysicists for the finesses of world formation. I wonder whether this computer/statistics fellow took into account the consequences of deep time? Billions of years do strange things to the chances of unlikely things happening anyway.

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account. (Of course, if we're in a simulation, that almost guarantees there isn't other life in this universe while depending on there being life in others.) If neither of those are a thing, and what we see is what there is, I'd wager there is, or has been, other life in this universe but the odds of us ever crossing paths are essentially zero.

 

[TomcatViP]

Negative. The case would then need to be analysed within the proper spectrum which is the means of communicating b/w two different species part of segregated civilisations spreaded among a vast array of plausible knowledge level (you see how distance is only a technological factor and not a variable characterizing the search domain).

We won't assess the question of a different life form in the universe without first answering with a degree certitude the former question.

20y ago, indigenous population in remote area where qualified as unknown until the sat phone. The right question now is have we yet made contact? That's where we should be focused on.

 

[galgot]

One thing too is that when thinking about an advanced extraterrestrial civilization reaching to us from such distances (either traveling physically, or just communicating), is that such a capability likely involves also some kind of time travel. Or at least some kind of time "control".

Or just communicating with us from say, a 100 LYs away planet, you must be a long living octopus...

 

[Orionblamblam]

Pity as I have been quoting it since the 70s. Blame Carl Sagan's Cosmos.

It's a fairly obvious thought... humans have been broadcasting radio signals since the beginning of the 20th century, and *perhaps* arguably before, what with telegraph system unintentionally sending out electromagnetic "leaks." But it was only within, IIRC, the last 20 years or so that anyone actually sat down and tried to work out the practical range of transmissions.

Probably Pointless Analogy: turn on a radio or an old analog TV and turn to a channel/frequency where there is no station. Even though there are no broadcasts, you still get *static* good and loud. That static is the echo of the Big Bang, along with innumerable other astrophysical phenomena. This static would be a little quieter a hundred million lightyears out in the abyss between the galaxy (far from lesser stellar phenomena), but the static would largely still be there. Imagine it: this static FILLS THE UNIVERSE, and it is a meaningfully fraction as "loud" on the surface of Earth as radio and TV broadcasts. Dozens to hundreds of miles from powerful transmitters, the static begins to overwhelm the broadcasts. If the noise of the universe begins to overwhelm transmitters over a distance of hundreds of miles, what chance does "I Love Lucy" or "FDR's Fireside Chats" or "Lil Adolph's Greatest Hits" or "The Kardashians"or "Ridiculousness" have over light years?

If there as an exact copy of Earth orbiting Alpha Centauri A, our most powerful radio telescopes could not pick up alt-Earth's TV or radio. We *could* easily detect radio messages beamed our way via their radio telescopes, and could probably pick up flashes from their DEW-line radars if they happened to be pointed our way. We would be able to *see* alt-Earth as a planet with continents and oceans long before we could detect their radio leakage.

 

[Orionblamblam]

Re the DEW line, no signal, true, but thats like saying a flashlight isnt a signal - freq, repetition, and direction - all are a signal.

Might be a signal, but it's not a message. Listen to radar all you want, you won't pick up so much as a "Swipe right to not invade" message from it. It'd be like a radio station that broadcasts not songs, but a single sustained note.

And the problem with radars as an interstellar communication medium is that they are aimed purely at terrestrial purposes. Zero thought is given to the stars beyond. So a radar might be pointed at Alpha Centauri or Vega briefly... but perhaps onlylong enough for a hypothetical receiver to hear a single "bip" on their end.

 

[Fluff]

And if no-one else has sent a message, they may just gather up their Octopus family, and follow that signal....Arriving about 50 years after the signal was first broadcast.....

And of course we could be sending out signals we dont even know about, who knows what happens on the Hyperjump highway, when we set of all those nukes 60 years ago....

Or they might just be a family of Octopus that likes to jump into an old FLT truck and see some of that old Galaxy, before they feed the fishes....

So we should prepare for 2 old aliens popping, in, for cream teas, and then a nap.

 

[steelpillow]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

Our universe is as near-infinite as makes no difference here. It cannot be contained in some finite lab in some other place. Some Elite-style data compression (BBC Micro game, my child) with creative invention by the program when we push the limits has not been tenable since we measured the scale of the beast. What can be contained in a finite lab is a grainy/pixellated model wholly lacking in individual conscious awareness, and that is not us. It is a comparable proposition to Descartes' malignant demon on a Universal scale, logically irrefutable but still an absurd metaphysical fantasy.

If another parallel place can be detected because it interacts with us then it is not a distinct universe. If it cannot interact with us then it is just metaphysical fantasy. The argument that "in an infinite multiverse everything is possible" misses the point that near-infinity is suddenly massively different from true infinity. Having begun in a finite fireball and expanded at a finite (if once superluminal) rate ever since, the Universe is ultimately finite and despite its vast size (well beyond our event horizon) the probability of parallel Earths etc. is still so remote as to be negligible. No infinity has ever been accepted as a genuine physical model of reality, indeed when infinity (or the converse, the infinitesimal) appears in the equations, you immediately know that the theory has hit a boundary condition and broken down. Only Douglas Adams' Infinite Improbability Drive can allow such fantasies. Mine's one sugar with a dash of milk - and mind what you do with that teaspoon, thank you.

 

[Fluff]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

You wouldn't say that if Robert A Heinlein was still with us.

 

[steelpillow]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

You wouldn't say that if Robert A Heinlein was still with us.

Yes I would. He wrote a lot of scientific rubbish, it was his job.

But hey, make up your mind. In an infinity of parallel universes containing an infinity of simulations he is still alive in infinitely many of them. So don't go telling me that you believe in all that rubbish but he is gone.

 

[martinbayer]

That octopus family outing conjecture reminds me of yet another alien encounter movie scenario - Explorers...

 

[Fluff]

Anyway He's living in a parallel universe now, and reportedly very happy.

 

[sferrin]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

There are a lot of brains, smarter than you or I, who say otherwise.

 

[Fluff]

You have to admit, that Jeremy Corbin, Nigel Farage and Boris are tantamount to proof that there is a parallel universe.

 

[galgot]

You have to admit, that Jeremy Corbin, Nigel Farage and Boris are tantamount to proof that there is a parallel universe.

not so parallel in that it crosses with our a bit too often then.

 

[Fluff]

So if we are saying they could have existed, but are 'out' on time, this adds to the Gods/astronauts built the pyramids, so that waccko guy was right?

 

[steelpillow]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

There are a lot of brains, smarter than you or I, who say otherwise.

You are no doubt including Boltzmann brains in that. I look forward to your reasoned justification for such madnesses.

 

[kaiserd]

The answer is 42.

 

[sferrin]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

There are a lot of brains, smarter than you or I, who say otherwise.

You are no doubt including Boltzmann brains in that.

No, I'm not.

 

[Rhinocrates]

One revealing issue that I see with virtually all starship engineering studies and all the wishful thinking about warp drives is the assumption that space is merely an irrelevant interval separating real destinations. However, to achieve interstellar travel one has to spend at the very least centuries, if not millennia (which is more likely) in the medium. Planets and inner stellar systems by necessity must be irrelevant to interstellar-travelling beings if they are to survive. I think therefore that there is a strong selection pressure in the environment driving a convergent evolution of spacefaring beings. As relatively few body plans emerged from the sea to colonise the land, far fewer returned to the sea, and those that did kept repeating similar forms - ichthyosaurs resemble dolphins, late mosasaurs resemble Basilosaurus, plesiosaurs, turtles and penguins all have similar locomotion etc. Interstellar space will impose even more evolutionary pressure on its inhabitants. Even if they aren't fully convergent to each other, they will converge on a suite of forms and behaviours that will be extremely divergent from planet-based life.

 

[Orionblamblam]

You have to admit, that Jeremy Corbin, Nigel Farage and Boris are tantamount to proof that there is a parallel universe.

Careful about bringing politics into such discussions. There are two usual results:
1: Someone points out that *your* side is just as crazy (*try* to convince me that Third Wave Feminism isn't a plan by aliens to convince humans to stop reproducing so they can invade the joint without opposition once western humanity has gone extinct)
2: Moderators come in and stomp the discussion into oblivion, because we can't have anything nice.

 

[Orionblamblam]

However, to achieve interstellar travel one has to spend at the very least centuries, if not millennia (which is more likely) in the medium.

Unless something very entertaining *and* unlikely occurs, practical interstellar travel of any kind is probably centuries away. In the time it takes for science and engineering to make starships a reality, other seemingly unrelated technologies will also develop. *Perhaps* a way will be found to preserve human bodies for centuries... something dull like "suspended animation," perhaps something more unlikely like temporal stasis fields. *Perhaps* a means will be found to download a human mind into computer storage, along with a file for the appropriate human body; after centuries or millenia in transit, a new body will be simply fabricated and the mind downloaded into it. for the individual, it will be as if they went to sleep in spacedock and woke up at the new world. Perhaps one of a great many other possibilities will make it possible for the long millenia of interstellar transit to pass in a moment for the crew and passengers of seemingly "standard" biological humans.

There are a lot of "perhaps" in there. But if the last five hundred years of western civilization teaches anything, it is that the mind of Man is capable of some amazing things and should not be discounted.

 

[Rhinocrates]

There are a lot of "perhaps" in there. But if the last five hundred years of western civilization teaches anything, it is that the mind of Man is capable of some amazing things and should not be discounted.

(Scottish proverb: 'What may be may not be'.)

True, but I'm thinking of starships as the entities that must survive. The passengers are symbiotes or an infestation. I can't see much point in reconstructing a human body when the destination is unlikely to be earthlike enough to make it a practical idea, and if downloading technology becomes feasible, then we have a post-human being which will begin to follow an evolutionary path away from what is 'standard' today.

I blame my attitude on Lem.

 

[steelpillow]

There are also things like the Simulation Theory and Parallel Universes to take into account.

Those are both rubbish.

There are a lot of brains, smarter than you or I, who say otherwise.

You are no doubt including Boltzmann brains in that.

No, I'm not.

You should be, your logic leads straight to them.

 

[TomcatViP]

There are a lot of "perhaps" in there. But if the last five hundred years of western civilization teaches anything, it is that the mind of Man is capable of some amazing things and should not be discounted.

(Scottish proverb: 'What may be may not be'.)

True, but I'm thinking of starships as the entities that must survive. The passengers are symbiotes or an infestation. I can't see much point in reconstructing a human body when the destination is unlikely to be earthlike enough to make it a practical idea, and if downloading technology becomes feasible, then we have a post-human being which will begin to follow an evolutionary path away from what is 'standard' today.

I blame my attitude on Lem.

That's interesting in the way that it implies that the other form of life we might find at the end of such journey would be... Us.
Funny also that ancient Greek philosophy will still prevail in that space age (travelers find themselves at the end of their journey).

 

[Orionblamblam]

I can't see much point in reconstructing a human body when the destination is unlikely to be earthlike enough to make it a practical idea

??? We're finding *vaguely* Earth-like worlds all over the place. Simple solution: *make* them Earth-like. it makes vastly more sense to make dead worlds fit Man than remaking Man to fit a multitudes of dead worlds. Look at Mars: it woudl be a chore to Terraform Mars. it woudlbe a chore to gengineer humans to survive on Mars-as-is. But what would be the best final result? A world wher ethe vast majority of humans can't visit, and where the local popualtion can;t visit the rest of humanity... or a world which is open to all, with people who can mix with the rest of humanity? "Diversifying" the human species is a recipe for disaster, as human history has shown. "Those funny-lookin' weirdoes? Let's enslave/kill them all."

if downloading technology becomes feasible, then we have a post-human being which will begin to follow an evolutionary path away from what is 'standard' today.

Possibly. A system that can download a human mind, memory, personality, "soul," whatever and upload into a new body is not necessarily a system that can "play" that mind in The Matrix. And even if it can... it seems entirely possible that many people who upload into The Matrix will also want to jump out into Meatworld from time to time. It seems unwise to assume absolutes.