Enlarged Apollo CSM-Based Logistics Vehicle

SAustin16

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Good Evening to All,

Both the Apollo CSM and Gemini spacecraft had very limited internal space available to haul cargo back and forth to the planned civilian and military space stations. McDonnell created Big Gemini as a logistics vehicle by enlarging the basic Gemini spacecraft. I would assume that North American also performed studies (after they had done the final engineering on the CSM for the first lunar landing) of an enlarged Apollo CM-based vehicle.

Does anyone have concept drawings or illustrations of North American Aviation's designs?

I've been playing with completely conjectural designs of what it might have looked like. Based on the basic CM (top white section) with the profile continued to a larger diameter, and a 21 foot diameter "SM" for systems / maneuvering / de-orbit propulsion. The diameter would allow it to ride on top of the Saturn S-IVB.

(And Yes, I realize that the heat shield would be enormous, and it probably would have driven the nice lady resin workers at Textron over the edge...LOL)
 

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Michel Van

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i don't know if NAA/Rockwell made a study for enlargement like BIG Gemini
Wat i know is they propose to squeeze 6 Astronauts in standart CSM and use land landing with parasail

Modified Apollo Logistics Spacecraft
index.php

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,4268.0.html
 

CFE

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Of course, such an "Apollo on Steroids" would look a lot like the Orion CEV that was yet to come. The question is what diameter you'd design to during the 60's and 70's when these studies were conducted. Conceivably you could go as wide as the S-IVB, even though it would be overkill.
 

OM

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(And Yes, I realize that the heat shield would be enormous, and it probably would have driven the nice lady resin workers at Textron over the edge...LOL)

...Actually, by the time a "Big Apollo CM" would have come to pass, CAD/CAM would have evolved enough for machines to do the resin plugging with enough efficiency and accuracy to be as good if not superior to what those nice ladies managed to perform through talent, diligence and proficiency despite the obvious tedium.

...One other thing to consider is that the max diameter of this Big CM would have most likely been that of the Saturn V booster, with the gantry clearance being a mitigating factor insofar as trying to Delta fat shroud fit one much bigger than that on whatever insertion stage was chosen. More than likely Max ⌀ would have been that of the Saturn V, which would have been ~33.0' (10.1 m for you foreigners :p), with the SM being either the never-produced S-III payload stage for an LEO insertion, or the S-IVB as a complete TLI/TEI SM package.

[thinks]

...You know, I think Scott can verify this, but out of all the hundreds of posts over 13 years of sci.space.* about Big Gemini, I don't think we ever threw up the possibility of a Big Apollo CM even when the first Apollo 2.0 proposal phase disqualified anything but a 1.5 conical. I remember my "Hyperion" proposal featuring spare Mercury capsules with Gemini trunks on top of Titan I's, but never anything like this.
 

SAustin16

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To All,

Thank you for the responses.

As I considered "Big Apollo" over the last few days, I had assumed that like Big G, it would ride on an S-IVB. OM's comment of perhaps riding on an S-II or SIII led to the hastily prepared illustration below, the lower "SM" section being 33 feet in diameter. Although not shown, I envision 1 or 2 large hatches (a' la Big G) above the heatshield for loading the masses of cargo. With this heatshield, you know the Textron ladies would be praying for CAD/CAM robotics.

"That's not a re-supply ship...that's a space station!" With these 3D designs I have the beginnings of new card models for Jon Leslie's wonderful Lower Hudson Challenger website.
 

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Michel Van

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Nice graphic
now to some problem:

how to get crew in Big A ?
if they not modify the launch pad the Crew need to step true CM hatch
and move down to lower floor.
so CM got only Pilot and Copilot seat,
the middle seat is out to make place to get in hole down to lower floor.


so how much astronauts for Big A ?
depends from to mission - Space Station supply - AAP solo mission
makes 6 - 12 Astronauts pro launch

Launch Escape System
need to be new design: New cover and bigger rockets

some Info
CM landing with Parawing
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19690011574_1969011574.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700026611_1970026611.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670017942_1967017942.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700011127_1970011127.pdf
CM land landing MISDAS
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670005559_1967005559.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670005572_1967005572.pdf
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19670005610_1967005610.pdf
 

OM

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how to get crew in Big A ?
if they not modify the launch pad the Crew need to step true CM hatch
and move down to lower floor.

...The only issue would occur if the entire stack was taller or shorter than a standard Saturn V stack. Note that I've got to do a little checking on this, but IIRC for the Skylab S-V, the crew access arm was modified to fit the change in payload, so it *could* have been done if the resulting new stack repositioned the doors.
 

XP67_Moonbat

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http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19740073531_1974073531.pdf

MODIFIED APOLLO LOGISTICS SPACECRAFT.
 

SAustin16

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Good Evening Gentlemen,

Thank you for the references you provided. They are very useful for me. I very much appreciate your help and your efforts.

The 6-person Apollo CM looks like it would have been quite cozy, but at least it would be a ride home. I think I would have enjoyed riding in Big Gemini instead.

Steve Austin
 

Barrington Bond

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Just cam across this in a NASA doc but I'm sure I have seen a very small piccy in another thread...?

Regards,
Barry
 

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Michel Van

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Nice find, Barrington Bond

i found in german space books about
a further development of Apollo capsule called MOSS with 6 Astronaut for NASA
is this it ?

source:
Das 1x1 der Weltraumfahrt
Josef Pointner
ECON 1966
page 316
 

SAustin16

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Barrington and Michel,


Thank you very much...the illustration is a very interesting find. Appears to be from rather early in the Apollo program, just based on the style of the craft, and the drawing?


Now that our American manned space program has vaporized before our eyes, these older designs and dreams have even more meaning.


Best,
 

Barrington Bond

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Woo! found some more B) I make the assumption that it is also the capsule docking at the station.
 

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Michel Van

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Barrington Bond said:
Woo! found some more B) I make the assumption that it is also the capsule docking at the station.

most Big "self to unfold rotating" Space Station used Apollo capsule but with short Service module
 

Barrington Bond

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Downloaded ok for me - mentions Diana as being a modified 6 man Apollo.

Regards,
Barry
 

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Got it downloaded via another browser. Reference for this is "Project Olympus," which I vaguely recall being in my files, either scanned or copied at NASA HQ. I'll check.
 

Barrington Bond

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:)
 

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OM

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...Interesting. At the rate we're going, by Christnukkah Scott will have diagrams on his site for a 24-man Super-Apollo Block 16, which Barry will counter with a 24-man and 12-women Super-Duper Apollo Block 17. All of which will be launched on Titan-III's with six SRB's strapped on.

:p
 

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OM said:
... Titan-III's with six SRB's strapped on.

That was the "Titan IIIL-6" concept. "L" for Large diameter core, 15 feet; "6" for the six seven-segment UA-1207 SRB's. A number of companies looked at the TIIIL6 as a first stage for the space shuttle (the ET would be mounted to the front of the Titan, the Shuttle hanging off the side and firing its engines after staging).
 

Barrington Bond

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B) Clustered Titan - who wants solids...
 

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Barrington Bond

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The last post of drawings I found in the report:

Phase II Study of Head-End Steering for a simplified manned space vehicle.
March 1966 Douglas Report SM 51872

It also makes mention that "spacecraft recovery will be accomplished at prepared land recovery sites."

Regards,
Barry
 

OM

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Orionblamblam said:
OM said:
... Titan-III's with six SRB's strapped on.

That was the "Titan IIIL-6" concept. "L" for Large diameter core, 15 feet; "6" for the six seven-segment UA-1207 SRB's. A number of companies looked at the TIIIL6 as a first stage for the space shuttle (the ET would be mounted to the front of the Titan, the Shuttle hanging off the side and firing its engines after staging).

...Isn't this the one that we questioned whether or not the diameter of the Titan III basic first stage was wide enough to mount all six SRBs without rather lengthy standoffs? I note Mark Wade only has the Titan 3L4 as the largest of the "L" series, but if you've got some sources I can pass the cites on to him, maybe I can get him to do a new article. Although he's tweaked the site since he put it back up, it's been a while since he's actually posted anything new of substance. :'(
 

SAustin16

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Thank you all for posting.


Trying to insert a full crew into the six-man Apollo would have been interesting. It looks like it would have been difficult to enter the rear couches, but perhaps that just perspective. I'd love to see an actual mock-up.
 

Michel Van

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SAustin16 said:
Thank you all for posting.

Trying to insert a full crew into the six-man Apollo would have been interesting. It looks like it would have been difficult to enter the rear couches, but perhaps that just perspective. I'd love to see an actual mock-up.


NAA aka Rockwell even studie 8-Man Apollo capsule as rescue craft for Space Shuttle or Space Station
source, the holiest of holy blogs:
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=6779
 

Grey Havoc

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Slight correction to the link Moonbat posted: http://www.aerospaceprojectsreview.com/blog/?p=623
 

Archibald

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Kind of "Big Apollo" just like the "Big Gemini" (twelve man crew)
 

phil gollin

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.

Just wondering just how large the escape tower assembly would have had to have been ?
 

Michel Van

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phil gollin said:
Just wondering just how large the escape tower assembly would have had to have been ?

for Big Gemini they wanted to use the Apollo LES to pull the bigger Gemini capsule from Booster
Despite bigger and 12 passengers it had same mass as three man Apollo CM.

now is question had this enlarge CM the same mass ?
 

Orionblamblam

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phil gollin said:
.

Just wondering just how large the escape tower assembly would have had to have been ?

Several companies studied "big Apollo" designs, so there are different weights and different abort systems. But the design I have the most info on, a McDonnell-Douglas concept from 1967, used an Apollo abort tower with a length extension and consequently more propellant.
 

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Orionblamblam

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Michel Van said:
phil gollin said:
Just wondering just how large the escape tower assembly would have had to have been ?

for Big Gemini they wanted to use the Apollo LES to pull the bigger Gemini capsule from Booster
Despite bigger and 12 passengers it had same mass as three man Apollo CM.

now is question had this enlarge CM the same mass ?

Note: this was for a nine-man configuration.
 

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