Earliest air to air 'Kill chain'?

[Rule of cool]

Apparently in the recent air to air clash between Pakistan and India, Pakistan's success was from it's use of the 'kill chain', described as 'A, fired from B. guided by C'. Basically long-range, air to air missiles guided in their mid-course by AEW aircraft. This got me thinking, was this, or something like this, possible earlier?

IIUC the F14/AWG9/Phoenix combo did this, the Phoenix was lobbed up on a high trajectory, given mid-course updates from the F14s AWG9 and then dove onto it's target and getting it's own active radar lock at about 11 miles. Would it have been possible for the E2's radar to provide those mid course updates? If so would it be possible for the E2 to guide Semi-active radar homing Sparrows?

Even more tenuous is the S-band receiver in the BAC Lightning, which allowed it to receive signals from ground based radar and leave it's own radar off until the last minute. If this cold be done in 1965 to a plane when could something similar be done with a missile? Does the missile have to be fire and forget, and if so could a lock after launch IR missile do the job? When does lock after launch IR become feasible?

 

[Byeman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_Engagement_Capability

 

[Rule of cool]

I was thinking/hoping for something in the Cold War, pre-AMRAAM, the earlier the better.

 

[Dilandu]

I was thinking/hoping for something in the Cold War, pre-AMRAAM, the earlier the better.

The SAGE was basically this for Delta Dart and Delta Dagger; the interceptor was essentially controlled by land-based computer, human pilot input was required only to properly discriminate radar signatures & lock fire control system on target.

 

[Rule of cool]

The SAGE was basically this for Delta Dart and Delta Dagger; the interceptor was essentially controlled by land-based computer, human pilot input was required only to properly discriminate radar signatures & lock fire control system on target.

Ferranti developed a system for the Lightning, that of course was cancelled and never fitted to the fleet, that would have allowed a totally hands-off interception. The pilot could keep his head glued to the radar scope to manage the missile firing sequence.

The more I think about it, this modern kill chain requires highly reliable terminal homing and well as a data link to the missile itself, none of which were remotely possible in the 60s and 70s. Even the Phoenix was a SARH missile with active radar terminal homing, the track while scan capability of the AWG9 making the whole system amazing.

Maybe expanding SAGE/hands off intercept thing, for example EC121s over Vietnam allowing interceptions without the fighter radar transmitting, would be about the extent that 60s and 70s technology would allow. The E3 - F15 could expend on this concept if it was pursed in the 60s.

 

[BlackBat242]

Apparently in the recent air to air clash between Pakistan and India, Pakistan's success was from it's use of the 'kill chain', described as 'A, fired from B. guided by C'. Basically long-range, air to air missiles guided in their mid-course by AEW aircraft. This got me thinking, was this, or something like this, possible earlier?

IIUC the F14/AWG9/Phoenix combo did this, the Phoenix was lobbed up on a high trajectory, given mid-course updates from the F14s AWG9 and then dove onto it's target and getting it's own active radar lock at about 11 miles. Would it have been possible for the E2's radar to provide those mid course updates? If so would it be possible for the E2 to guide Semi-active radar homing Sparrows?

Even more tenuous is the S-band receiver in the BAC Lightning, which allowed it to receive signals from ground based radar and leave it's own radar off until the last minute. If this cold be done in 1965 to a plane when could something similar be done with a missile? Does the missile have to be fire and forget, and if so could a lock after launch IR missile do the job? When does lock after launch IR become feasible?

"Kill Chain" does not describe an attack by a single F-14, as this was the normal procedure for many different fighter types of the era.

"Kill Chain" is used to describe a situation where two different items are used to control a third... the F-14 and its AWG-9 system (or any other radar mounted on/in the firing aircraft and that aircraft) were considered as one unit, since the radar is "part of the aircraft".


Yes, an E-2C COULD guide the AIM-54... the USN practiced F-14s firing AIM-54s (both using their radar for initial targeting download to the missile and using the F-14's Link4 system to receive the targeting info from the E-2C's Link4 system) then passing control of the missile to the E-2C which would providing the mid-course update transmission to the AIM-54 until the missile had internal radar lock on the target.

This was a true "kill chain".

 

[Dilandu]

BOMARC maybe? I'd think multiple radars would be involved getting it to the place where its active radar could take over.

BOMARC used SAGE system and active radar seeker; it did not have independent navigation.

 

[Rule of cool]

"Kill Chain" does not describe an attack by a single F-14, as this was the normal procedure for many different fighter types of the era.

"Kill Chain" is used to describe a situation where two different items are used to control a third... the F-14 and its AWG-9 system (or any other radar mounted on/in the firing aircraft and that aircraft) were considered as one unit, since the radar is "part of the aircraft".

Yes, the F14-Phoenix wasn't a kill chain, but the Phoenix operated as if it could be used in a kill chain.

Yes, an E-2C COULD guide the AIM-54... the USN practiced F-14s firing AIM-54s (both using their radar for initial targeting download to the missile and using the F-14's Link4 system to receive the targeting info from the E-2C's Link4 system) then passing control of the missile to the E-2C which would providing the mid-course update transmission to the AIM-54 until the missile had internal radar lock on the target.

This was a true "kill chain".

When was this? Was it possible with the 70s AIM-54A or did it have to wait until the 80s AIM-54C?

Was it ever possible with any version of the Sparrow?

 

[Rule of cool]

BOMARC maybe? I'd think multiple radars would be involved getting it to the place where its active radar could take over.

BOMARC used SAGE system and active radar seeker; it did not have independent navigation.

If the BOMARC used multiple radars for mid-course guidance the active radar for terminal homing, then it's more or less a kill chain. However, the BOMARC was huge, dwarfing even the Phoenix and much less flexible in it's employment compared to a fighter/AAM-AEW combination.

 

[Rule of cool]

It was a strategic SAM with a nuclear warhead. And deployed in fixed sites.

Yes, whereas the F14/AIM54-E2C combo could be deployed to anywhere in the world.

It would be interesting to see if the USAF could employ something like the kill-chain in Nth Vietnam in 1972, or the Israelis in 1973 or 1982. However, that would require the Sparrow to be compatible with the concept, and it wasn't.

Apparently the F14 lacked the IFF the Air Commander required in the 1991 PGW to allow the F14s to start lobbing Phoenixes at long range, but if they did then that might have been the first kill-chain employment.