Douglas Mach 2.0 tanker

[SlickDriver]

In one of the Flying Review (1958) they said that Douglas was designing a Mach 2.0 tanker for the B-58 program. Does anybody have any more information of the project? Drawings, specs, designation, anything?

 

[KJ_Lesnick]

In one of the Flying Review (1958) they said that Douglas was designing a Mach 2.0 tanker for the B-58 program. Does anybody have any more information of the project? Drawings, specs, designation, anything?

Is mid-air refuelling at supersonic speeds even feasible? One the receiving aircraft would be blasted with the high temp exhaust by the tanker (and is already taking heat flying mach 2), even small nose up and down movements could produce high rates of climb and descents, and the airflow patterns of the two aircraft could interfere unfavorably with each other...


KJ Lesnick

 

[flateric]

Well, FYI, guys from Lockheed were considering refuelling at Mach 6 for one of USAF Aerospaceplane concepts.

 

[hole in the ground]

In one of the Flying Review (1958) they said that Douglas was designing a Mach 2.0 tanker for the B-58 program. Does anybody have any more information of the project? Drawings, specs, designation, anything?

Is mid-air refuelling at supersonic speeds even feasible? One the receiving aircraft would be blasted with the high temp exhaust by the tanker (and is already taking heat flying mach 2), even small nose up and down movements could produce high rates of climb and descents, and the airflow patterns of the two aircraft could interfere unfavorably with each other...


KJ Lesnick

Perhaps this is the reason why these are paper only projects? Is it truly a tanker flying at Mach 2 or a tanker designed to refuel a Mach 2 aircraft?

 

[SlickDriver]

In one of the Flying Review (1958) they said that Douglas was designing a Mach 2.0 tanker for the B-58 program. Does anybody have any more information of the project? Drawings, specs, designation, anything?

Is mid-air refuelling at supersonic speeds even feasible? One the receiving aircraft would be blasted with the high temp exhaust by the tanker (and is already taking heat flying mach 2), even small nose up and down movements could produce high rates of climb and descents, and the airflow patterns of the two aircraft could interfere unfavorably with each other...


KJ Lesnick

Perhaps this is the reason why these are paper only projects? Is it truly a tanker flying at Mach 2 or a tanker designed to refuel a Mach 2 aircraft?

The article was brief but it was a tanker capable of Mach 2 flight. Am not sure if they meant to refuel at that speed.

I agree that the idea of refueling at Mach 2 is incredibly dangerous, and for that reason alone should have made this a paper project only. I was hoping to find out if anyone here had any more information, since there is a number of individuals here with far better resources than I do.

 

[XP67_Moonbat]

In HYPERSONIC, I read that the USAF had considered doing an experiment where one X-15 would have refueled another at speed. That would have been something if it had worked.

Moonbat

 

[Kim Margosein]

You would be talking a fairly large tanker aircraft, say Concorde size. What is going on behind such an aircraft at Mach 2? I imagine all sorts of shock waves, with the receiving aircraft maneuvering through a narrow corridor to avoid them.

 

[hesham]

In one of the Flying Review (1958) they said that Douglas was designing a Mach 2.0 tanker for the B-58 program. Does anybody have any more information of the project? Drawings, specs, designation, anything?

Hi Loren,


here is the comment,but so weird,they said it was based on development of the DC-8 and powered
by four Pratt & Whitney J58 turbojet engines !.

 

[Mark Nankivil]

I read that as the tanker is capable of Mach 2, not that they refuel at that speed. Sort of matching the airframe capabilities instead of sending a KC-135 two hours before the B-58 even takes off so both arrive at the refueling point together at the appointed time.

P&W J-58 powered DC-8 - looks like something for the artists in this group to put on paper (or PC monitor!)!

Enjoy the Day! Mark

 

[Bill Walker]

I seem to recall reading that during the A-12 / SR-71 development program Lockheed flew 2 aircraft in fairly close formation at Mach 3+ several times, and found it relatively easy to do.

 

[Archibald]

And now, Lockheed "supersonic jet tanker ! "

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&biw=1024&bih=635&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALeKk036mIz7KKC-AMI04gI3XRr0OZWduw:1596636258016&ei=YrwqX-dOipaXBOepjagB&q="a+supersonic+jet+tanker+"&oq="a+supersonic+jet+tanker+"&gs_l=psy-ab.3...25551.25917.0.26226.2.2.0.0.0.0.102.180.1j1.2.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.Qxj58MU6NiE

Aviation Daily, Including International Aviation

books.google.fr

My mind is blown. Note that I also found tantalizing bits of Boeing SST as a tanker - in 1966 and as a last-ditch effort by "Nixon SST-man" John Magruder in early 1972.

https://www.google.fr/search?tbm=bks&hl=fr&q=%22a+supersonic+tanker+%22

The Cincinnati Enquirer from Cincinnati, Ohio on February 13, 1972 · Page 124

Sunday, February 13, 1972 IYluui'ry 1.1, 1P72 llT-iilfio-iitmr I4, 1 lllllll MI For U. S. Developing SST Bv BOB BRUMFIELD Enquirer Aviation Writer It's a very "iffy" proposition, but America stilll might pet its supersonic transport program off the ground ... one of these days. However, any...

www.newspapers.com

 

[Archibald]

I seem to recall reading that during the A-12 / SR-71 development program Lockheed flew 2 aircraft in fairly close formation at Mach 3+ several times, and found it relatively easy to do.

They were very, very tempted to do it.
In fact Lockheed toyed with the idea thrice
- in 1959 with the A-11 early studies
- with A-12 OXCARTs in the 60's (what is mentionned in the quote above)
- With NASA YF-12s (the agency did not agree !)

 

[norseman]

Someone knocked up some nice drawings of a Concorde tanker based on the B model, aimed at spec ops tanking/fast dash for specific operations etc. The development of the B model was pretty far along, especially the tech for the revised true supercruise Olympus engines (no re-heat). Ah, the joys if there had been a massively bigger budget to tinker where you wanted (Vulcan B.3 especially, 80,000lb bomb load, up to 6 Skybolts, 4 modified 30,000lb+ thrust Olympus engines and hugely increased range), if the B-52 can survive this long a super moded Vulcan as a stand off strike platform would have been tasty even today. Hell, even the Chinese Tu-16 variants are still in production and pretty capable.

The joys of a good what if!

 

[Archibald]

Someone

Stop teasing ! Who is "someone" ?

I once checked evolved Olympus variants - beyond the Mk.610. I found a Mk.622 with much, much more thrust. Related to the Concorde B non-afterburning, supercruise engine (from memory). I'll try to check my HD...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/bac-sud-aviation-concorde-development-variants-projects.728/page-4#post-336792

 

[DWG]

Someone knocked up some nice drawings of a Concorde tanker based on the B model, aimed at spec ops tanking/fast dash for specific operations etc. ...

The joys of a good what if!

There are four strike/spec-ops modified Concorde Bs - 'the white elephants - in the back-story of Charles Stross's Laundry Files books, one of them finally gets some on-screen time in The Labyrinth Index when it's used to extract the US president from Washington using a variation of the Fulton Skyhook principle.

 

[Archibald]

Wow. We have some... imaginative writers there.

 

[DWG]

Wow. We have some... imaginative writers there.

Well, by that point in the narrative America is being ruled by the proxies of Great Cthulhu, so yeah

 

[Archibald]

Ok so it seems that, in 1956 there was a KC-X program for a supersonic tanker, and Lockheed got the contract before dropping it. Might have been related to Suntan lack of range ?

American Aviation

Issues for include Annual air transport progress issue.

books.google.fr

https://www.google.fr/search?hl=fr&biw=1024&bih=635&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1954%2Ccd_max%3A1960&tbm=bks&sxsrf=ALeKk03HHDpQpBh-wRLwdKXtibc4JpYvcw%3A1596810846838&ei=XmYtX6bOMpCmaLOxkegI&q=%22+KC-X%22%22KC-135%22&oq=%22+KC-X%22%22KC-135%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...14934.17196.0.17721.6.6.0.0.0.0.204.581.5j0j1.6.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.btKFu3_wfn0

 

[Pioneer]

Would be interesting to know more about the competitive designs submitted to the USAF 1956 KC-X program for a supersonic tanker, to say nothing about this Lockheed design and why it Lockheed, although winning the competition, dropped out.....

Regards
Pioneer

 

[mboeller]

could that be the same competition for which Convair seems to have proposed a B-58 tanker?

 

[Void]

This might be relevant.

 

[Archibald]

I knew this but, that's a very clean document here. The original is horrible so thanks for sharing !

 

[fightingirish]

This post is just a reference to another topic.

Lockheed CL 400 Suntan refueling. The beautiful aerial depiction looks like Jozef Gatial's work!

 

[Orionblamblam]

I found a report on Douglas studies of supersonic tankers, dated 1960. Several designs were included, but all pretty simple and conceptual.

 

[Archibald]

What that a private sale pitch or did the company answered a RFP or WS something ?

 

[RanulfC]

I seem to recall reading that during the A-12 / SR-71 development program Lockheed flew 2 aircraft in fairly close formation at Mach 3+ several times, and found it relatively easy to do.

I seem to recall reading that during the A-12 / SR-71 development program Lockheed flew 2 aircraft in fairly close formation at Mach 3+ several times, and found it relatively easy to do.

They were very, very tempted to do it.
In fact Lockheed toyed with the idea thrice
- in 1959 with the A-11 early studies
- with A-12 OXCARTs in the 60's (what is mentionned in the quote above)
- With NASA YF-12s (the agency did not agree !)

From here: "From RAINBOW to GUSTO: Stealth and the Design of the Lockheed Blackbird", page 141(158 in the pdf)
"Although supersonic refueling has apparently never been accomplished, the concept did not die completely. Years later A-12s were fl own in formation at high speed in order to judge whether there was sufficient stability and control to refuel. The shock wave from the nose of the lead aircraft interfered with the trail aircraft and made stable flight impossible (Interview with Frank Murray, Las Vegas, NV, 1 Oct. 2007)."

I'd suspect that a bigger airframe would have a bigger shock-cone but...

Randy

 

[hesham]

I found a report on Douglas studies of supersonic tankers, dated 1960. Several designs were included, but all pretty simple and conceptual.

View attachment 639179

Brilliant,but what was the designation number for it ?.