Doubt about Lippisch DM-1/Siebel Mistel composite

[Marcelo]

Hi, all,

I'm new in this excellent forum. I would like to know if someone can help me with my doubt. I'm going to build the DM-1/Siebel Mistel composite in 1/48 scale. But I'm a bit confused, since in one book ( Lippisch P-13a, by Hans-Peter Dabrowski, published by Waffen-Arsenal series) the mother aircraft should be a Siebel Si 204 A version, which carries atop the Lippisch DM-1 wooden glider. But I have another book, "Secret Wonder Weapons of the Third Reich", German Missiles 1939-1945, by Justo Miranda and P. Mercado, published by Schiffer. In this excellent book, on page 28, there is a drawing about a Mistel composite with a Siebel Si 204 D version, and the DM-1 mounted atop.
So, does anyone know which one Siebel version is the correct? Which one should carry the glider?

Thanks in advance!!- Marcelo.

 

[GTX]

I know what you mean - there are a number of references to both types (and some that just say Si-204). Maybe it was both types at various times? Have a look at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/4082/mistel/mistel.htm

Regards,

Greg

 

[lark]

The drawing of the Siebel 204/DM-1 combination on the
website is taken from the 'Waffen Arsenal-band 102"
and there it is indeed labeled Si-204A.

Probably on the website 'something is put together'

In "Der Flugzeugschlepp von Anfängen bis Heute" by Ernst Peter-Motorbuch Verlag Stuttgart
the combination is showed with the caption as follows:
'Forschungflugzeug von Dr.Alexander Lippish DM-1 im
Mistelschlepp auf einer Siebel Si 204' - page 192.

(Research aircraft Lippish DM-1 in Mistel tow on a Siebel Si 204)

 

[GTX]

I think what Marcelo is after though is which version of the Si-204 was specifically used.

The A model:

or the later D model:

As you will see, there is considerable difference in their appearance.

Regards,

Greg

 

[GTX]

Upon further researching it would appear that the DM-1/Si-204 combo never actually flew so either combination is probably ok as both were apparently proposed. If you want something realistic, the DM-1/DC-3 combo shown on the link above may even be just as likely!

Regards,

Greg

 

[Justo Miranda]

Hi, all,

I'm new in this excellent forum. I would like to know if someone can help me with my doubt. I'm going to build the DM-1/Siebel Mistel composite in 1/48 scale. But I'm a bit confused, since in one book ( Lippisch P-13a, by Hans-Peter Dabrowski, published by Waffen-Arsenal series) the mother aircraft should be a Siebel Si 204 A version, which carries atop the Lippisch DM-1 wooden glider. But I have another book, "Secret Wonder Weapons of the Third Reich", German Missiles 1939-1945, by Justo Miranda and P. Mercado, published by Schiffer. In this excellent book, on page 28, there is a drawing about a Mistel composite with a Siebel Si 204 D version, and the DM-1 mounted atop.
So, does anyone know which one Siebel version is the correct? Which one should carry the glider?

Thanks in advance!!- Marcelo.

The subject of your interest is of a highly speculative nature as it intends to clarify to which airplane version belongs the possible bearer of another that was not yet built in Germany by the end of the war.

When I made the drawing you describe I used the information (text only) from the book 'Die Deutschen Flugzeuge 1933-1945 Nachtr." by Karlheinz Kens and Heinz J. Nowarra, J.F. Lehmann 1964. As you may appreciate in the attached text it mentions the Si 204 D. However, a later edition of 1969 just mentions the Si 204.

As for other sources, Lippisch himself in his book 'Ein Dreieck Fliegt' (Motorbuch Verlag 1976) does not make any reference to it and the pictures of the time show the DM-1 with a tube in the nose to connect a towing conventional system. The rope can be seen in the attached drawing.

The bibliography is vey confusing. Wieslaw Baczkowski published an illustration of the si 204 D in Wydawnictwo Bellona No. 166 (1997).
- David Masters (Jane's 1983) and Robert Forsyth (Classic Publications 2001) talk about a Siebel Si 204 without referring to any specific version
- Hans Peter Dabrowski (Poznum Pallas 1986), Manfred Griehl (Monogram 1998) and Joachim Dressel (Motorbuch 1989) mention the Si 204 A version.

I will also add an illustration on the Si 204 A.

Regarding my drawing, the only extrapolation I made was the shape of the struts connecting both airplanes. To that purpose I used the information included in the pictures of the windtunnel testing and on the system used with the Me 328/Do 217 K V3 combo.

I believe that a way to solve the problem would be to find out which models of airplanes would have been available in the Priem am Chiemsee airfield in May 1945, in case there was a Siebel.

I have already conducted a similar search in Rechlin, Travemünde and Tarnewitz without any positive outcome.

Bibliography
=========

-Uberschalljäger Lippisch P13a by Hans-Peter Dabrowski, Poznum-Pallas ed. 1986
-Jet Planes of the Third Reich, The Secret Projects ,Vol ONE , by Manfred Griehl , Monogram, 1998.
-Die Deutschen Raketenflugzeuge by Joachim Dressel , Motorbuch Verlag 1989.
-German Jet Genesis by David Masters , Jane’s 1982.
-Mistel , german composite aircraft and operations 1942-45 , by Robert Forsyth , Classic publications 2001
-AVION (Spanish magazine) 2/1978
-Tajne bronie III Rzeszy by Wieslaw Baczkowski , Widawnictwo Bellona N.166 , 1997
-Die deutsche luftrüstung 1933-45 by Heinz J. Nowarra , Bernard & Gaefe verlag 1993
-Die deutschen Flugzeuge 1933-1945. Nachtr. by Karlheinz Kens & Heinz J. Nowarra ,J.F.Lehmann Verlag , 1964
-Die deutschen Flugzeuge 1933-1945. by Karlheinz Kens & Heinz J. Nowarra ,J.F.Lehmann Verlag , 1968
-Lippisch P13a & Experimental DM-1 by Hans-Peter Dabrowski , Schiffer , 1993
-Ein dreieck fliegt by Alexander Lippisch , Motorbuch verlag, 1976.

 

[Marcelo]

Wow, my friends,

First of all, it was not my intention opening a big discussion on this particular topic. And of course I'm very very grateful for the excellent information that all you bring me about this Mistel composite.

In fact, I only have a small information about this. For that reason when I ckecked it, I was surprised seeing the big difference between both Siebel versions ( A and D).

Anyway, Thanks again to all you for the links.

Now a small note to Justo: I hope you are not annoying because I mentioned your book as a reference. I know that the information about some german projects are usually confuse or ambiguous. I myself have a bunch of doubts when I do a research for developing my models....
It was just my intention to clarify what version was used for to test the DM-1.

Thanks again!!

Marcelo.

 

[Justo Miranda]

Do not worry about that. One of the best achievements of this forum is to identify errors in the publications, comment them and avoid that they perpetuate themselves when future authors mentions them as source.

On the other hand, I would like to state that in page http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Village/4082/mistel/mistel.htm
mentioned by GTX, 35 drawings by myself have been published.

I have no problems that my drawings are moderately used in the web but I find unethical its massive usage in exchange of a single text line in the bibliography.
Anybody knows if the guy at least bought the books?

All the best,
Justo

 

[Marcelo]

Thanks for to understand, Justo.

And of course your are quite right. I have talked several times with Dan Johnson, and he was very annoying about the same thing. He said me ( for example) that he has found his site TOTALLY translated in few languages ( Russian, Czech) of course without his permission.
I know this is not the correct place for talking about this, but I understand what you mean when you are angry for the unfair use of your drawings and texts.....


Take Care,

Marcelo.

 

[Vladimir]

Thanks,Justo, here is a mistel plan

 

[Justo Miranda]

My opinion

 

[hesham]

From my dear Justo and Flugzeug Profile No.20.

 

[Chris Chris]

 

[riggerrob]

Eyeball engineering the FW 58C says that it is poorly balancd with the Lippish Delta too far forward.

All the other Mistels look properly balanced.