Dornier PP = Daimler Schnellstbomber

moin1900

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Hi everybody

There are still some mysteries.....

At the Unicraft Page is a project called Dornier Push and Pull !!
It looks like a racing plane! I think it is not a Dornier Project,
because long time ago I have read a little article in the german magazin JET&PROP 4/03
There was a 3view of it and a little text about it, too.

“Daimler-Benz Bericht 1944“
“Untersuchung der Eindringtiefe eines 30 to-Bombers mit 5 to Bombenlast bei einer Maximalgeschwindigkeit von 600 km/h in 7 km Höhe“

The 3view shows the cockpit section in the nose (not behind the wings like the Unicraft )
And the bomb bay in the central with the Fuel tanks.
The 3view shows some good data, too.

Schnellstbomber Data
Triebwerk: DB-P83
8 Gruppenmotoren zu je 2000 PS
Leistung: 16000PS
Maximalgeschwindigkeit: in 7km Höhe 850km/h
Abfluggewicht: 30 to
Bombenlast: 5 to
Eindringtiefe: 830 km
Spannweite: 11,32m
Länge: 13,76m

At the bottom of the 3view was also a date
“ Untertürkheim, den 28.1.1944, Haug”

So, I hope this helps
The picture at the bottom of the page was shown in JET&PROP 1/92
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/germ/dopp/dopp.htm
Sorry, I know this is not a real source but I have not found another Picture of it!!
What do you think about it!

Many greetings
 

lark

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In the 2 column article by Hans -Peter Dabrowski in Jet&Prop 4/03 -August-September 2003
a much more detailed 3-view is shown with a colour sideview by the author of the
article.
On the request by. Mr Dabrowski in the Daimler-Chrysler archives no more
information about the project could be produced.Even the name 'Haug' is not sure.
The illustrations on the Unicraft website are adaptions with much artistical
freedom of the original artwork in the Jet&Prop article.
 

moin1900

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Thanks for adding this information! lark

Many greetings
 

Wurger

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Hi Lark and Moin1900,

nice info on that interesting project. Any chance to show us those two different drawings? All the best.
 

Wurger

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Hi everybody,

I have just received Lark`s excellent page taken from Jet&Prop. Many thanks to him. This project is fascinating, and much to do with Daimler-Benz`s "Heavy Fighter Project". Notice the annular radiator. I never heard about this DB P88 engine ( I also never knew about the use of the prefix "P" on DB), boasting 16000 Hp. By looking at that drawing I could assume it was made of "gruppenmotoren", existing engines coupled, apparently cylinder to cylinder bank ( very unusual, but the germans were great at odd solutions ), with each group sporting `till 2000 Hp.
 

Wurger

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Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Hello fellas,

first of all I would like to thank Lark for the disclosure of this incredible "Secret Project". The bomber project was discussed some time ago, but I wonder if someone knows about this "beast" engine. It is a "gruppenmotor", made up of 8 2000hp engines . Specifications are present, so comments will be appreciated. What do you think?
 

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Wurger

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

hi Justo,

so nice to have you here. As usual, prime stuff. Any considerations on the specs?
 

Orionblamblam

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

If the reconstructions are correct in their placement and configuration of the cockpit... this plane would have been a freakin' *nightmare* to fly.
 

Wurger

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Hi,

indeed, it would be awkward to pilot. Perhaps some sort of periscopes would be needed, as in other designs, or a retractable cockpit. Nevertheless, it was purely conceptual. By viewing the drawing, what do you think on the engine?
 

Orionblamblam

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Wurger said:
what do you think on the engine?
A gearing nightmare. Multiple linked engines, long extension shafts, contra-rotating props... all kinds of ways this could fail catastrophically.
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

From "Geheimprojekte der Luftwaffe - Band III"
by Dieter Herwig and Heinz Rode
Motorbuch Verlag 2002
 

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Wurger

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Well guys,

I`m a bit like Mr. Magoo, but watching those somewhat blurry specs I would try to translate with my sketchy german:

Engine: DB-P83
something like ...doppel(double)... 2000hp each
Output: 16000hp
Bore: 150mm
Stroke: 160mm
Cylinder number: 110?
Capacity: 316,6 litres
RPM. 3200
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Plese see http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4126.0
 

Wurger

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Hi Justo,

Ok, that ends my entries. Defence rests. ;)
 

Avimimus

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Does anyone have stats (primarily speed) for the derivative P.1065 variants? Thanks.
 

Avimimus

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Thank you,
 

zerstorer1946

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

I really like this project and i would like to scratchbuild a model of this , im aware of the unicraft kit, but the position of the cockpit doesnt really look right.
are there any other methods i could sort of obtain a proper scale plan of this plane, either in 1.72 or 1.48 scale?
 

Tojo633

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

All
Just been looking at this design, certainly would get a few double takes if on display at any model show. To me the whole design is a bit of a nightmare, almost a designers bad dream, When I look at the layout and general view I keep thinking canard foreplane, tricycle nosewheel U/c for starters. The U/c as is, looks far too frail to support such a design, and the tail wheel????? Tail wings and rudder look as if the were spares from the Hindenburg.
Am I right 5,000 kg (10,000lb) bomb load on an aircraft that is just under 14 m in length roughly similar size to a Mosquito?, where are they going to put all those bombs? to put it in perspective.
Cookie 4,000lb Carried by Mosquito
Tallboy 12,000lb - Lancaster
Grand Slam 22,000lb - Lancaster
Lancaster 102 ft W/span Length 69 ft considerably larger than a Mosquito.
Wonder what substances the designers were on? ok it is a design and a weird one at that, one of many weird German Luft 46 designs. Don't take my comments too seriously just trying to put some perspective on it. As I said earlier would be an interesting model.
Sandy
 

Jemiba

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Something, that just came up to my mind :
Luigi Colani was born in 1928 in Berlin, so he was in the age of
about 17 in 1945. An aircraft, that seems to be just a teen agers
dream...., a designer, who later extensively used contra props,
and in tandem arrangements, too .... and who advertised the "symbiosis
of fin and landing gear" for weight saving.... , and whose designs were
very often encumbered in a very similar way with a non-existent cockpit
view .... and quite probably unflyable ?

That's the evidence : There was the "Volkssturm" in german design teams ! ;D
 

archipeppe

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

It seems to have some point of contacts with a lot of Jona projects back in mid-30's.
Jona was an Italian aircraft designer and small producer essentially for private market.
Anyway he patented several design for fighters that was not so far from this one (and from Do 335 indeed even if well before it).
 

Skybolt

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

I woudn't give too much sense of actual connections to pusher configurations, flush cockpits and the like: there are scores of similar designs from, to say one, Pegna, who trained as a designer in the '10s and early '20s and came from ... nautical engineering....
 

Jemiba

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Actually, after looking at the original drawing, shown in the first post of this thread,
I think, we just can be sure, that the designer showed, how to squeeze the engines and
transmissions into a single fuselage. The strange kind of tail wheel probably was adopted,
because a nose wheel wouldn't be possible due the engines in the nose and a conventional tail
wheel because of the pusher props. I don't think, that the planform of wing and tail surfaces
should be taken too seriously. And the cockpit isn't shown at all in the original drawing, to my
opinion, it just appears in that Jet & Prop drawing ! The artist put it at the place, he thought
to be suitable, maybe he didn't want to alter the shape of the fuselage.
But apart from the pure propulsion system, the drawing perhaps gives no hard informations about
an aircraft at all ?
 

hole in the ground

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Jemiba said:
Something, that just came up to my mind :
Luigi Colani was born in 1928 in Berlin, so he was in the age of
about 17 in 1945. An aircraft, that seems to be just a teen agers
dream...., a designer, who later extensively used contra props,
and in tandem arrangements, too .... and who advertised the "symbiosis
of fin and landing gear" for weight saving.... , and whose designs were
very often encumbered in a very similar way with a non-existent cockpit
view .... and quite probably unflyable ?

That's the evidence : There was the "Volkssturm" in german design teams ! ;D
Colani racer...
http://www.geocities.com/unicraftmodels/on/colani/colani.htm
 

Kevin Renner

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

One thing. Aircraft equipped with "Gruppenmotor" were quite common in WWII. Not the excessive flights of lunacy that saw the one dicussed here but any multi-row radial engine is a "Gruppenmotor". The one experimental one I would of loved to here was Wright Aero's Tornado. 42 Cylinders, 3 crankshfts, 7 layshafts. And they had plans to add two more sets of 14 cylinders for a 70 cylinder engine. Basically the 42 was 3 14 Cylinder engines set in tandem.

Weak Force Press has a bit of info on the Tornado.
 

moin1900

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Here the patent.

Patent Nr / Veröffentlichungsnummer: DE903063
Inventor: Erich Übelacker / Daimler Benz
Year: 09.01.1944
Title: Anordnung der unveränderlichen und veränderlichen Massen in einem Flugzeug mit ausschliesslich im Rumpf untergebrachter Antriebsvorrichtung zur Aufrechterhaltung des Gleichgewichtszustandes.

The patent shows the Schnellstbomber and a Fighter.

https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=einsteiger

Direct link
https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/depatisnet?action=pdf&docid=DE000000903063B
 

Wurger

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Great!!!
 

moin1900

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Re: Daimler-Benz "Gruppenmotor"

Schnellstbomber V/max in 7km was 850km/h not 650km/h.
 

maxmwill

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I just found this thread. I started looking at Unicraft's Dornier PP, and got curious about it this time, so started digging more, and found this thread.

If you wish, I wouldn't mind a look at this.

The PP I'd been wondering about off and on, and, like the Fw 190 with the turbine in the nose, didn't make a lot of sense, unless there was a proof of concept before this to prove the the idea.

I know, the Do335, but this beastie might've had a few different characteristics than the Pfeil.

Where did this come from?

Not the physical location, but the design itself, such as why non retractable mains, because wheels sufficient to support the aircraft can be made thin enough, yet still strong enough to support the aircraft, so what am I missing, unless non retracting gear was intended by the designer for other reasons.


I do know one thing, the Dornier might make a nice electric rc model, say around a meter span, unless you really want to impress yourself with a larger scale, perhaps 2 or 3 meters(for those who want to be ambitious). ;)
 

hesham

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Hi Maxmwill,from Jet & Prop 4-2003.
 

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Imperialist

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Wow that's really interesting! :eek: Thanks for the images Hesham!!
 
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