DDG(X) - Arleigh Burke Replacement

FWIW, about seven or eight years ago I floated the question of what a clean-sheet cruiser for the USN would look like without cost constrain. The conclusion was 240 VLS cells (128 area defence, 64 self protection, and 48 strike) and aviation facilities capable of handling 2-4 V-22s, on about 30,000 tonnes.

All of which is pretty on the nose for the 'Golden Fleet' ships. If anything the 'wish list' is a little more ambitious.
 
FWIW, about seven or eight years ago I floated the question of what a clean-sheet cruiser for the USN would look like without cost constrain. The conclusion was 240 VLS cells (128 area defence, 64 self protection, and 48 strike) and aviation facilities capable of handling 2-4 V-22s, on about 30,000 tonnes.

All of which is pretty on the nose for the 'Golden Fleet' ships. If anything the 'wish list' is a little more ambitious.
They need to come up with a bigger cell. Maybe get some SK KVLS-II.
 
They need to come up with a bigger cell. Maybe get some SK KVLS-II.
The Tubby does have the 12 40 inch CPS .

Or 12 VPM size ones.

Details are a little hazy on the exact nature.


My interest is honestly in the EWAR kit.

Imagine that this thing can basically see the ISS and Jam it if it wanted from the amount of energy it can throw around.

Which be scary for anything to deal with.
 
The Tubby does have the 12 40 inch CPS .

Or 12 VPM size ones.

Details are a little hazy on the exact nature.
I'm not sure if that's 12x VPMs APMs or only 4x VPMs APMs (with 3x CPS each). (or whatever they're calling the tube install one the Zumwalts)

12x VPMs APMs would be 36x CPS or whatever fits into those 40" tubes.



My interest is honestly in the EWAR kit.

Imagine that this thing can basically see the ISS and Jam it if it wanted from the amount of energy it can throw around.

Which be scary for anything to deal with.
It'd need much bigger SPY6 arrays, not the current Burke III set. What's the RMA count for the proposed CGX, again? 56ish?
 
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I'm not sure if that's 12x VPMs or only 4x VPMs (with 3x CPS each). (or whatever they're calling the tube install one the Zumwalts)

12x VPMs would be 36x CPS or whatever fits into those 40" tubes.


Most places seem to have interpreted it has meaning "12 individual cells each holding one CPS missile" -- which would equate to the equivalent of four Advanced Payload Modules/APMs (each of which can accommodate 3 CPS tubes, or alternative 7 Tomahawk sized weapons).
Given some of the art, based on the size of the real estate on the bow section 12 total cells for 12 CPS missiles looks much more reasonable than 12 full APMs.
1.jpeg

In at least one of the "infographics" they have, they are somewhat explicit about describing it as "12x CPS missiles" (though of course that infographic does have some typos, namely the Mk-41 VLS should be 128 rather than 28 -- but the 12x CPS missiles part isn't something I could see being a typo in the same manner).
And the "spec sheet" is also calling it "12 cells CPS" specifically...
3.png 2.jpeg


At this stage I think it's reasonable to interpret that they're referring to 12 total CPS missiles onboard, rather than 12 APMs (which would be 36 CPS missiles).
The "relatively" low total VLS count (for this ship's size) is a likely tradeoff for the pursuit of a large bow railgun and two (bow 5 inch guns. Whether wanting such a heavy gun armament is wise is another matter, but it explains where some of the tonnage went.
 
I'm not sure if that's 12x VPMs or only 4x VPMs (with 3x CPS each). (or whatever they're calling the tube install one the Zumwalts)

12x VPMs would be 36x CPS or whatever fits into those 40" tubes.




It'd need much bigger SPY6 arrays, not the current Burke III set. What's the RMA count for the proposed CGX, again? 56ish?
CGX was cancelled before SPY-6's architecture was set, so it was discussed in array size rather than number of RMA blocks. Raytheon has pitched a 69-RMA array for large surface combatants. The LSC program was looking at that size seriously prior to the 2017 program reset, DDG(X) was at least discussing it as a growth option.
 
I still think the recent announcement was a rebranding for DDG(X), with the rail gun and lasers being hot air. The navy can give the admin their political win and just scale this ship down later to more reasonable sizes and armaments (ideally keeping the VLS count/ power cooling). That said - I have no further intentions on talking more about that announcement by itself but I think there realities facing the DDG fleet is pretty clear here - the burkes, no matter how much more of them you build simply doesn't have the headroom left for growth. Pumping burkes might be sustainable in the short term, but beyond 2040, you're going to need that replacement regardless.

To support my pet theory, the question that needs answering is really is how the navy wants to replace the Burkes. Force structure and operations wise, 20 - 25 CG sized ships is basically going to get you nowhere alone, as you still need shooters, cells and sensing to cover a wide area. It's probably also not sustainable to have more than 20 - 25 of a CG sized ship anyway. The only other viable surface combatant to make up for the phasing out of the burkes is to have an FFG(X) that can contribute meaningfully to a sensor network, and producible/sustainable in numbers greater than the Burkes so as to replace that VLS cell count. That only works if the distributed sensing network based on FFGs can make up for running without a burke replacement. This seems very unlikely to me, even with a proprietary design let alone some Legend class derivative.

The most likely outcome of all this is either there's going to be a new DDG(X) program or that DDG(X) is continuing under this golden ship program.
 
I still think the recent announcement was a rebranding for DDG(X), with the rail gun and lasers being hot air. The navy can give the admin their political win and just scale this ship down later to more reasonable sizes and armaments (ideally keeping the VLS count/ power cooling). That said - I have no further intentions on talking more about that announcement by itself but I think there realities facing the DDG fleet is pretty clear here - the burkes, no matter how much more of them you build simply doesn't have the headroom left for growth. Pumping burkes might be sustainable in the short term, but beyond 2040, you're going to need that replacement regardless.

To support my pet theory, the question that needs answering is really is how the navy wants to replace the Burkes. Force structure and operations wise, 20 - 25 CG sized ships is basically going to get you nowhere alone, as you still need shooters, cells and sensing to cover a wide area. It's probably also not sustainable to have more than 20 - 25 of a CG sized ship anyway. The only other viable surface combatant to make up for the phasing out of the burkes is to have an FFG(X) that can contribute meaningfully to a sensor network, and producible/sustainable in numbers greater than the Burkes so as to replace that VLS cell count. That only works if the distributed sensing network based on FFGs can make up for running without a burke replacement. This seems very unlikely to me, even with a proprietary design let alone some Legend class derivative.

The most likely outcome of all this is either there's going to be a new DDG(X) program or that DDG(X) is continuing under this golden ship program.
I mean, there were 16x Ticos on top of 26x earlier CG/CGNs, all in service in the 1980s. 42 total guided missile cruisers all in service by 1990. (Which did rapidly fall off as the older ships were retired and only 11 more Ticos were commissioned)

So there is absolutely an argument to be made for a production run of more than 40 CGs. (notably, that would give each carrier at least 2 CGs in the escort group)

More likely, I think we're looking at a production run in the mid-30s. One CG per carrier group (12), one per Amphib group (12), one for each numbered fleet as the Fleet Flagship (7), and a few extra to send places where you need more than a Burke but not a full carrier or Amphib group, yet. A last warning of "Your shenanigans have attracted the attention of the USA. Cease them before you attract the displeasure of the USA." And, if we're really talking 2x64+CPS for weaponry, I think that might send a message.

Then we can work on some DDs (primarily ASW) and DDGs (primarily AAW) as separate classes to replace the Burkes.
 
My hypothesis of what's happened:

1, DDGX either didn't really fit well into 13'500t, or did more or less Burke fl.III thing for more money. At which point it became all the risk (to Burke run) for no gain. ->Burke doesn't die. But Burke is vulnerable.

2, Evolution to have positive functional gain from DDGX was not towards more cells (US struggles to fill available ones with modern ammo, see these cute illuminators on both DDGX and BBGX), it was not to even more ABM sensor range (37 RMA arrays; it is no ACEV or LPD based MDS), rather to more survivability. Which is size, subdivision, backup and armor. A lot of it - b/c again, we now see essentially same fit as DDGX on a ship 3 times as large. Railgun and a few more PDWs take some tonnage to add, but not 25 thousand tons.

3, BBGX is a fully capable Burke fl.III and more, but above that it's a survivable SAG ship, that can lead a more survivable TF to operate ahead - preferably, escorted with USVs. Burkes (same sensor/weapon suit in cramped eggshell) can defend valuable assets and/or provide assistance from stand off and not anchored to vulnerables (blockade runs, amphibious landings).

4, All of it is optimization to free Burkes in 2030s to concentrate on one exact main job - escorting flat decks, and try to get to reliable ratio of 4 ships per 1.
Which means that Burkes can't be afforded to be expended in surface actions , they won't be available to escort bananas from Madras, nor they will be available for a convoy to Manila.
 
Whatever they do they need to take another look at building more CGNs.

The fuel/oiler requirements for a carrier battle group's escorts are getting insane. Maybe they should be discussing a new fast oiler design.
 
I mean, there were 16x Ticos on top of 26x earlier CG/CGNs, all in service in the 1980s. 42 total guided missile cruisers all in service by 1990. (Which did rapidly fall off as the older ships were retired and only 11 more Ticos were commissioned)

So there is absolutely an argument to be made for a production run of more than 40 CGs. (notably, that would give each carrier at least 2 CGs in the escort group)
Thats if we had the industrial base we did before. I think it could happen again if we can claw our way back there, but its not likely to be sustainable before... say 2040 just throwing an optimistic number out there?
Then we can work on some DDs (primarily ASW) and DDGs (primarily AAW) as separate classes to replace the Burkes.
Thats what I dont get. Why not just keep the DDG(X) program then instead of starting another new one, wait for another 10 years of concept design and tech maturity before the first hulls hit the water? Given the way the recent announcement has been worded, it really feels like no DDG replacement is coming soon...

Evolution to have positive functional gain from DDGX was not towards more cells (US struggles to fill available ones with modern ammo, see these cute illuminators on both DDGX and BBGX), it was not to even more ABM sensor range (37 RMA arrays; it is no ACEV or LPD based MDS), rather to more survivability. Which is size, subdivision, backup and armor. A lot of it - b/c again, we now see essentially same fit as DDGX on a ship 3 times as large. Railgun and a few more PDWs take some tonnage to add, but not 25 thousand tons.
Yeah that makes sense. Id rather they do away with useless sci fi armaments if they can make it more production and maitenance friendly and get more numbers out. That large hull would be roomy enough for future upgrades for decades to come which is nice.

How much does armor even help these days? Aren't modern warships not even armored anymore?
 
Thats if we had the industrial base we did before. I think it could happen again if we can claw our way back there, but its not likely to be sustainable before... say 2040 just throwing an optimistic number out there?
Probably.


Thats what I dont get. Why not just keep the DDG(X) program then instead of starting another new one, wait for another 10 years of concept design and tech maturity before the first hulls hit the water? Given the way the recent announcement has been worded, it really feels like no DDG replacement is coming soon...
Probably because they could not find a way to call it a destroyer with a straight face anymore. Not at 17,000 tons. Same problem with the Zumwalts.

But this gives the USN a whole lot of size to trade away to "make it cheaper"
 
2, Evolution to have positive functional gain from DDGX was not towards more cells (US struggles to fill available ones with modern ammo, see these cute illuminators on both DDGX and BBGX), it was not to even more ABM sensor range (37 RMA arrays; it is no ACEV or LPD based MDS), rather to more survivability. Which is size, subdivision, backup and armor. A lot of it - b/c again, we now see essentially same fit as DDGX on a ship 3 times as large. Railgun and a few more PDWs take some tonnage to add, but not 25 thousand tons.
Subdivision and armor doesn't make much sense. As you might save the hull from sinking, but you'll have lost the expensive long lead time items anyways with any sort of hit: radar, ewar, electrical system, power generation, lasers, and likely most of the missile bank. At which point you've spent allot of tonnage/space for no gain.
 
Subdivision and armor doesn't make much sense. As you might save the hull from sinking, but you'll have lost the expensive long lead time items anyways with any sort of hit: radar, ewar, electrical system, power generation, lasers, and likely most of the missile bank. At which point you've spent allot of tonnage/space for no gain.
Except generally speaking unless you take multiple hits, thats not true.

The Stark and Cole for example was considered still able to fight if needed after their hits, and the Stark was basically in two pieces held together by wires. Heck even the Royal Navy Shit Show at the Falklands showed this when the crew knew what they were doing.

Anti ship missiles do a lot of damage but thye don't do one shot kills unless its a REALLY BIG missile on a small ship. Remember ships are big, at most you losing one sub system (waht you listed) unless you get extremely unlucky. And depending on the system, like say engines, you likely able to bring back up.

Plus you save the MOST IMPORTANT AND EXPENSIVE PIECE.

The Crew.

Who can be transfer off to other ships as needed due to multiple systems being the damn same.
 
Worst Case Scenario, what if the intention all along was to kill DDG(X) and the battleship was merely a smokescreen to do so? Replace DDG(X) with vapourware that you know will not get approved or built...
 
Except generally speaking unless you take multiple hits, thats not true.

The Stark and Cole for example was considered still able to fight if needed after their hits, and the Stark was basically in two pieces held together by wires. Heck even the Royal Navy Shit Show at the Falklands showed this when the crew knew what they were doing.

Anti ship missiles do a lot of damage but thye don't do one shot kills unless its a REALLY BIG missile on a small ship. Remember ships are big, at most you losing one sub system (waht you listed) unless you get extremely unlucky. And depending on the system, like say engines, you likely able to bring back up.

Plus you save the MOST IMPORTANT AND EXPENSIVE PIECE.

The Crew.

Who can be transfer off to other ships as needed due to multiple systems being the damn same.
The Cole was fighting flooding for 3 days after the hit. I wouldn't consider that able to fight. Also that was just explosives on a boat without a shaped charge creating a hole and a delayed fuze to burst inside the ship. The ship then needed to be floated back to base. In an actual war a second minimal follow up strike would come to finish it off easily.

One of the missiles that hit the Stark didn't explode and they both hit basically the same place. Yet it lost radar and SM missile fire control immediately and it still took 24 hours to stop the fires.

In the Falklands war the exocets that hit military ships either didn't explode or exploded on the deck of the ship. So that's not a good example of what missile damage is like. The Atlantic Conveyor sunk after 2 hits though it was a commercial ship albeit 15kt.

Modern missiles also target specific sections of ships with some types specifically aiming for engineering spaces, magazine, or radars. You can't bring up turbine engines after they have been damaged, unlike boilers.

With the long lead time of many items, you start the war with as many mission capable ships as you'll ever have. You'll lose mission capable ships faster than you'll lose crew. Meaning allot of the crew will be sitting around with nothing to do. This isn't WW2 or similar where you can just reconnect some pipes, weld plates on the hull, and weld the boiler back together and be ok.

Also trying to conduct damage control on a ship that won't be mission capable for a few years will likely lead to more crew losses than just abandoning ship. Either way the crew is useless if there aren't any mission capable ships for them to man.

The Japanese have especially adopted a low damage control/survivability viewpoint with the Mogami class frigates saying:

"For the Mogami class, damage control and communications are run from the CIC. This has come about for two main reasons – the effectiveness of new generation Chinese anti-ship missiles, coupled with careful analysis of the sinking of the 12,000 tonne Russian cruiser the Moskva by one or two Ukrainian missiles on April 14, 2022. Japanese analysists believe that the Moskva was a highly capable, well defended ship but noted that it sank within a few hours of being attacked.

At the same time, China has been fielding more powerful anti-ship missiles of their own. Japanese officials declined to name exactly which missiles are the ones now giving planners a major headache, but the suggestion is that some of them have larger or more effective warheads – or both – than earlier generation weapons.

The conclusion is that if a modern well protected 12,000 tonne warship can succumb to a strike from a Neptune missile with a 150kg warhead, the chances of survival of a 4-5,000 tonne class ship such as a Mogami are minimal. The PLA(N) equivalent of the Neptune (both are derived from Russian missiles) is the YJ-12, which is understood to have a larger warhead of up to 500kg.

The calculation is simple: there is no need for the Mogami class to have a separate damage control centre because if the ship receives a major hit to the CIC – including from future hypersonic missiles – there will be no point in trying to continue operating. The most likely outcome of such a scenario is that the surviving crew will be heading for the life rafts. This also explains why the ship is without an emergency CIC, with further savings in personnel numbers."
 
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Worst Case Scenario, what if the intention all along was to kill DDG(X) and the battleship was merely a smokescreen to do so? Replace DDG(X) with vapourware that you know will not get approved or built...
And what would the justification, be it strategic or political, for effectively cancelling DDG(X) without a replacement?

Unless you truly believe this administration goal is to dismantle the US military, then this seems highly unlikely.
 
And what would the justification, be it strategic or political, for effectively cancelling DDG(X) without a replacement?

Unless you truly believe this administration goal is to dismantle the US military, then this seems highly unlikely.
Their goal is to funnel as much money as possible into their or their friend's pockets with no regard to the consquences.

But I do believe that a cut down, reasonable version of the BBG(X) will replace the DDG(X). Or the DDG(X) will get larger.
 
And what would the justification, be it strategic or political, for effectively cancelling DDG(X) without a replacement?

Unless you truly believe this administration goal is to dismantle the US military, then this seems highly unlikely.
M10, Humvee & JLTV, E7, Constellation class, DDG(X). So far.

Those are just the ones I'm aware of, and I'm not trying to keep track.
 
M10, Humvee & JLTV, E7, Constellation class, DDG(X). So far.

Those are just the ones I'm aware of, and I'm not trying to keep track.
Not familiar with the rest of them, but like I said, FFG(X), DDG(X) and E7 at least nominally all have replacements - if not a direct one, then at least a somewhat reasonable technological replacement.

Almost all the programs on that list were at least somewhat troubled too.

I think relying on political and cynical conjectures can be done at your own discretion, but im not inclined to believe them as rhe sole reason for program change and cancelations. If those were truly the reason, its hard to believe that the entire navy has just shut up about all of this. Afterall, numerous people have spoken out about the E7 and F/A-XX programs.
 
M10 had just started production, there is no replacement in the pipeline. Constellation has just been laid down, and all but two ships are cancelled. Any replacement will take time to reach the same stage, time that had already run out when LCS started hitting the water and turned into what it has turned out to be. We couldn't afford the delays in the Constellation program, we sure can't afford more delay. In both cases there were birds in the hand, and they've thrown them away for imaginary birds. I'm not a fan of either, but we're very much in a something is better than nothing position and they keep choosing nothing.

The E-2D is a great platform, but it doesn't have the endurance, and it doesn't have a large enough crew to do the "and Control" part of the mission. If they plan on buying 75 of them in place of 26 Wedgetails so you could afford to lose half the fleet and still fight on, maybe, but if it's one for one it makes no sense.

DD(X) was a long way from cutting steel, but unless they are diving in with the JMSDF on ASEV it means we're looking at 2040 before an actual Tico and Burke replacement is in production. A handful of "Battleships" won't make up for that, even if the don't get cancelled by whoever is next, which they will. Not to mention they'll need escorts, and that's what just got cancelled!
 
M10 had just started production, there is no replacement in the pipeline. Constellation has just been laid down, and all but two ships are cancelled. Any replacement will take time to reach the same stage, time that had already run out when LCS started hitting the water and turned into what it has turned out to be. We couldn't afford the delays in the Constellation program, we sure can't afford more delay. In both cases there were birds in the hand, and they've thrown them away for imaginary birds. I'm not a fan of either, but we're very much in a something is better than nothing position and they keep choosing nothing.

The E-2D is a great platform, but it doesn't have the endurance, and it doesn't have a large enough crew to do the "and Control" part of the mission. If they plan on buying 75 of them in place of 26 Wedgetails so you could afford to lose half the fleet and still fight on, maybe, but if it's one for one it makes no sense.

DD(X) was a long way from cutting steel, but unless they are diving in with the JMSDF on ASEV it means we're looking at 2040 before an actual Tico and Burke replacement is in production. A handful of "Battleships" won't make up for that, even if the don't get cancelled by whoever is next, which they will. Not to mention they'll need escorts, and that's what just got cancelled!
Again, M10 is heavy enough that it cannot use the organic recovery and engineering equipment of an Infantry battalion, it requires the same support equipment as an M1 Abrams!

Constellation is years late and over budget. Why wouldn't it be canceled for cause?

Stopping E-7 is stupid, agreed there.

DDGX is sufficiently far from cutting steel that it may be possible to replace quickly. Assuming that NAVSEA can be smote into not fucking with the design once set. My construction bid would have exponentially-increasing costs for change orders.

The Trump-class is roughly the size of a North Carolina-class (BB-55) or more honestly an Alaska-class cruiser. And I've already ranted about what I think that should be.
 
I think the Trump-class is a good idea but:
1. I like the size, more capacity and also, any size ship is vulnerable, so a large-size ship does not matter.
2. I like the large increase in vertical launch capacity and adding the hypersonic missiles, definitely needed.
3. I like the laser batteries so long as they have been thoroughly tested, if more testing needed, don't install in the first flight. I know the USN has put a lot of work into offensive lasers. Some old AWST 1980's issues even had reported on this work and one issue apparently had a leaked, profile view, black and white image showing a laser cannon (on the bow) and I think the article also stated a charged, particle beam cannon (on the stern) as well on an older, large destroyer.
4. I'm not sure about the rail gun. The Japanese did not show any of the collateral damage internal to the target ship in their video (not unless I missed anything) after the live fire test shot, I would think with that amount of kinetic energy release, I was thinking hollow point bullet type damage.
5. It seems our USN ships do need more firepower and our cruisers are almost done as well.
I know a little off-topic but I think the above has some relevance to DDG-X.
 
Again, M10 is heavy enough that it cannot use the organic recovery and engineering equipment of an Infantry battalion, it requires the same support equipment as an M1 Abrams!
The Japanese started with a similar requirement and wound up with the Type 16, which is also too big for C-130s. As is the Centauro. It seems as if small and light doesn't work anymore. Now personally, given an M10 weighs as much as a naked (before all the extra armor) Type 10, I'd have gone with that instead.
Constellation is years late and over budget. Why wouldn't it be canceled for cause?
Because it's going into production, and we need ships starting 20 years ago, and more delays are increasingly dangerous. It would have made way more sense to start with an Aegis ship, which means the Spanish F100 (or better the Australian Hobart variant), but they didn't do that, hence all the delays and overruns turning a non-Aegis ship into an Aegis one. It would be better to start building them at full pace, and then stop only when a replacement is in production, than to have yet another delay and more hollowing out of the combat fleet.
Stopping E-7 is stupid, agreed there.
Killed the NATO purchase too. But hey, good for Saab. Maybe they can sell 50 Erieye to NATO. Which is also a less capable system, but if they buy three times as many that may not matter so much.
DDGX is sufficiently far from cutting steel that it may be possible to replace quickly. Assuming that NAVSEA can be smote into not fucking with the design once set. My construction bid would have exponentially-increasing costs for change orders.
I had doubts about ever seen DDGX. Frankly I'd talk to Japan and give MHI and JMU yards in the US and have them build ASEVs for the USN. Take them off the shelf, well, with English, and turn the flight 2 into the requirements creep USN version. Or just keep building them until a new class design can be finalized. So roughly 2060, by which time Japan will have built a dozen new classes.
The Trump-class is roughly the size of a North Carolina-class (BB-55) or more honestly an Alaska-class cruiser. And I've already ranted about what I think that should be.
Personally I'd have built arsenal ships based on the Supply class AOE hull 25 years ago, but hey, peace dividend. The problem is even if they build a navy ship with a big enough tower for a flashing neon sign on it, that doesn't solve the high end fleet escort issue, it's a couple of expensive show ponies.


My problem with all these moves is the delays. If your car is in fine shape you have time to look around for exactly what you want at a good deal; if it's falling apart you don't have the luxury of time anymore. M10 wasn't ideal, Constellation took too long, but they are like the F-35, they are the bird in hand. Hell, given what I think of Lockheed, I suspect Constellation is more likely to be fully combat capable before Lockheed has all the F-35 bugs fixed, and I'm not calling for cancelling the only stealth fighter in the Western inventory.
 
The evolution of DDG(X) to BBG(X) is obvious. DDG(X) keeps growing far beyond anything reasonably called a destroyer, because NAVSEA is completely incompetent. Meanwhile, the Houthis campaign shows that future warships need more guns and lasers than expected, a way to kill low-cost drones and missiles. This shifts balance from more VLS to enough VLS + more guns, which also increases upward pressure on displacement. Lastly, as hinted at in wargames, long range hypersonics appear very useful in wargames, so the Navy wants more at sea, which produces even more displacement growth.

Faced with a design that is growing wildly out of control, the Trump administration seeks a Trumpian solution, just build a Battleship now and take the DDG(X) back to the drawing board for something smaller and more reasonable, 96 VLS, a gun, a laser, and a less capable radar.

Meanwhile, the Battleship clearly has something else in mind, it is oversized for its conservative armament, but something which hasn't proven itself yet. Multi-Megawatt laser, perhaps?
 
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The evolution of DDG(X) to BBG(X) is obvious. DDG(X) keeps growing far beyond anything reasonably called a destroyer, because NAVSEA is completely incompetent. Meanwhile, the Houthis campaign shows that future warships need more guns and lasers than expected, a way to kill low-cost drones and missiles. This shifts balance from more VLS to enough VLS + more guns, which also increases upward pressure on displacement. Lastly, as hinted at in wargames, long range hypersonics appear very useful in wargames, so the Navy wants more at sea, which produces even more displacement growth.

Faced with a design that is growing wildly out of control, the Trump administration seeks a Trumpian solution, just build a Battleship now and take the DDG(X) back to the drawing board for something smaller and more reasonable, 96 VLS, a gun, a laser, and a less capable radar.
My IMHO that eventual result would be a CG(X) - an intermediate ship, carrying DDG(X) functionality on larger hull, which allows for hypersonics & more VLS.
 
Meanwhile, the Battleship clearly has something else in mind, it is oversized for its conservative armament, but something which hasn't proven itself yet. Multi-Megawatt laser, perhaps?
1) growth margins

2) bigass laser requires bigass power supply and cooling. You need to have about double the beam output for electrical input, which means you're also going to need to provide the beam's power in cooling. 10MW laser output? 20MW electrical input and 10MW of heat to dissipate.


My IMHO that eventual result would be a CG(X) - an intermediate ship, carrying DDG(X) functionality on larger hull, which allows for hypersonics & more VLS.
I think there's a good chance that the eventual result will be pared down to something in the ~20kton range as a CG.
 
I think there's a good chance that the eventual result will be pared down to something in the ~20kton range as a CG.
Yep. As I speculated already - the whole BBG(X) thing might be an attempt from Navy to shock Congress with such bombastic project (pushed by POTUS), and then "reluctantly agree" to something smaller, which Congress would view as "reasonable". A 15-20 kiloton missile cruiser with DDG(X) functionality but with greater ammo (and growth space) would be excellent addition for USN. And since "San-Antonio"-class production is winding down, the yards could be freed for CG(X) construction
 
Yep. As I speculated already - the whole BBG(X) thing might be an attempt from Navy to shock Congress with such bombastic project (pushed by POTUS), and then "reluctantly agree" to something smaller, which Congress would view as "reasonable". A 15-20 kiloton missile cruiser with DDG(X) functionality but with greater ammo (and growth space) would be excellent addition for USN. And since "San-Antonio"-class production is winding down, the yards could be freed for CG(X) construction
My thinking exactly on the yards.
 
I don't think at 15-20 thousand ton ship is enough.

The DDG(X) was headed towards a CG(X) without the lasers, the extra gun armament, or the CPS tubes. Add lasers and a CPS and you're exceeding the CG(X) without any growth margin, which puts the Navy right back to where it is today. Furthermore, creating a BBG(X) allows the DDG(X) to shrink to something reasonable (10kTons) that could actually be built in enough numbers to be worthwhile.
 
There another add on you need to consider as well

Crew increase.

Cause one Idea I have seen push for TUBBY is as an Replacement for the 18k ton Blue Ridge class Command Ships.

That are pushing 70 years old.

And have a command staff of 1450 officers and enlisted, just for command ship company like 400.

How much was the Navy guess a crew needed on ship before consumables? Almost 5 tons in the 1930s?

Likely closer to 10 tons now.

So that nearly 15k tons in just Space for a proper Command crew and not a Tico 6 dudes on a spare CIC console.

Which brings in how much does all the Command Gear weighs?


Then add in the consumables.

Bet yeah even a half way good command flag set up is close to over 12k tons then not.

Put that on a Zumwalt hull? There 28k tons of displacement.

So add 7k for fuel expansion and weapons gets you 35k.

Suddenly sense be made.
 
Has anyone actually read what the Navy has said?

First, the Navy does not view surface combatants as destroyers and cruisers anymore so stop referring to them as such. Late model Burkes have been fitted with the necessary command and control functionality to take over from the Ticonderoga class as they retire.
It is unequivocally false to refer to DDGX) as just a Burke replacement, DDG(X) is the consolidation of US Navy large surface combatants into one capable class.

Second, the whole magazine depth argument is ignoring yet more public statements from the Navy. Navy has clearly stated that manned ships in the future fleet are sensor and shooter nodes for unmanned vessels. To this end having 128+ cells becomes less logical and that space can be better used for large diameter cells.

Third, what indication do you have that the Navy is dissatisfied with DDG(X)? It is entirely evident that the battleship is a political choice as the concept was never even mentioned before Trump came into office. The ship does do not fit the future fleets that Navy have discussed, nor does the ship make all that much sense.

The battleship has nothing over DDG(X), the weapons are the same, even down to the railgun. The sensors are also the same iirc. This idea that Navy wants anything other than the at which has been laid out for DDG(X) is not just speculation, it is unfounded speculation based on fallacy.
 
If the big hull can hold 5k to 10k tons of fuel, an IEP system gives you a lot of the operational benefits of nuclear power without the costs of actually operating a nuclear reactor. The Spruance-class hull was considered long-ranged with about 2k tons of fuel and a range of 6,000 nm at 20 kts. If you double the fuel load to 4k tons to account for increased fuel usage with the larger hull and then again to 8k tons for extra range, that would create a ship able to operate for 1-2 months without refueling or cross the Pacific and then still spend another week or two maneuvering. The CMV-22 would give the ship the ability to receive supplies up to 1,000 miles from a friendly airstrip, which puts you in the middle of the Philippine Sea from Guam or Japan.
 
The evolution of DDG(X) to BBG(X) is obvious. DDG(X) keeps growing far beyond anything reasonably called a destroyer, because NAVSEA is completely incompetent. Meanwhile, the Houthis campaign shows that future warships need more guns and lasers than expected, a way to kill low-cost drones and missiles. This shifts balance from more VLS to enough VLS + more guns, which also increases upward pressure on displacement. Lastly, as hinted at in wargames, long range hypersonics appear very useful in wargames, so the Navy wants more at sea, which produces even more displacement growth.

Faced with a design that is growing wildly out of control, the Trump administration seeks a Trumpian solution, just build a Battleship now and take the DDG(X) back to the drawing board for something smaller and more reasonable, 96 VLS, a gun, a laser, and a less capable radar.

Meanwhile, the Battleship clearly has something else in mind, it is oversized for its conservative armament, but something which hasn't proven itself yet. Multi-Megawatt laser, perhaps?

The battleship is the DDG(X) rework. It increasingly seems more like another Constellation though.
 
Second, the whole magazine depth argument is ignoring yet more public statements from the Navy. Navy has clearly stated that manned ships in the future fleet are sensor and shooter nodes for unmanned vessels. To this end having 128+ cells becomes less logical and that space can be better used for large diameter cells.
How will they defend themselves if they only have big cells. And if those big cells can fit multiple smaller missiles, then are we not talking about the same thing
 
How will they defend themselves if they only have big cells. And if those big cells can fit multiple smaller missiles, then are we not talking about the same thing
They defend themselves by using their onboard cells and cueing targets for munitions on UxVs. The big cells carry strike weapons, although G-VLS may be able to replace all cells with a common cell which would be optimal
 
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Why the fuck would DDG(X) or any large surface combatant command amphibious invasions? This post should be deleted by moderate sea as it is entirely beyond the scope of conversation and indeed logic
I was using the Blue Ridge class an example of the type of crews number the USN consider needed for flag work.

Cuase the Blue Ridges do more then Amphibious invasion, they often play a major command hubs for the forward fleets where the Admiral and is staff is.

Cause they are the only ships in the fleet that have the needed gear and space to take them all.


Especially Since the Ticos and Burke ADA flag gear consistes of ONE CONSOLE in the CIC and five bodies. And been lampbasted by everyone in the fleet as not enough for the job.

And the words they have for ASUW and even ASW is unprintable if a CVN not around.

Command gear has been a SORE point for the fleet for a LONG time and that was something the DDG(X) was slated to work with, with one of the modules list being for Flag work.

And Command work was historically the BIG job the battleships and Cruisers did.

There fore a ship suspicouisly bloated up with the size a command ship needs and is call a title historically used a the fleet command makes a lot of sense in it getting command work.
 
I was using the Blue Ridge class an example of the type of crews number the USN consider needed for flag work.
Blue Ridge controls an entirely different theatre tho, the roles of Tico flag facilities are incompatible with managing a greater number of men and material than the landings at Inchon. The numbers and requirements are broadly incomparable.
major command hubs for the forward fleets where the Admiral and is staff is.
Yes but this is a different type of flag facility again. It's like comparing command of a SAG to command of a CSG and again to command of Naval Surface Forces in a region.
And been lampbasted by everyone in the fleet as not enough for the job.
Already fixed in DDG(X), they do not require more.
There fore a ship suspicouisly bloated up with the size a command ship needs and is call a title historically used a the fleet command makes a lot of sense in it getting command work.
Awful silly to put your command ship in the way of missiles in the big 2-5. This isn't the age of sail anymore. If your assertion is true, a maximum of 11 of these so called Battleships would be more logical with DDG(X) proceeding as is.
 
Yes but this is a different type of flag facility again. It's like comparing command of a SAG to command of a CSG and again to command of Naval Surface Forces in a region.
Not really, the last major update to the Blue Ridges open up their Flexibility ALOT and you be surprise what a bunch of sailors can work with. At this level of command you not controlling platoons but Batteries, working to ensure they have what they need and be where they are needed. Which is extremely close to controlling a modern fleet. The big thing the command teams on these ships are doing, are pull intelligence, make that information readalbe to the Admiral, drawing up the gross plans of who doing what, setting up the Supply Lines of who need what, Listing out who is able to go, and the like. The Gear and training needed for that is very much the same as Landing work, with the big difference being from which WHO you go to get and send the information. And changing That is literally simple of changing the Address on the Commo System.

Thus the BIG deal being communications to talk to everyone. Which not many ships have, only the Blue Ridges and the FLattops do and they dont go where the Burkes and LCS Hoard need commanding.

Awful silly to put your command ship in the way of missiles in the big 2-5. This isn't the age of sail anymore. If your assertion is true, a maximum of 11 of these so called Battleships would be more logical with DDG(X) proceeding as is.
Its also awfully silly to put you command teams in a office on shore connected by only Satcomms. Which has been a MAJOR grip of the fleet. Especially when you have Burke working in teams doing what ever duties needed.

Those Burkes need a closer command and control node then where ever the CVN is or freaking Washington, which means enough numbers to cover them at all times.

And 32 is roughly what the old Destroyer LEADERS turn cruisers were count in the Cold War.


Like make no Mistake from this thing being call a Battleship, this a merely a glorified cruiser call a battleship to get the Idiots in DC on both sides to pay for it. The Age of these terms meaning ANYTHING died out 70 years, Stop acting like they have any weight outside of budget fights. This thing be called a Corvette if the Navy thought it allow its to get built.
 

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