DARPA/SOCOM Speed and Runway Independent Technologies (SPRINT)

steelpillow

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case.
but if you used electric drive, i.e. a motor in each of the 2 hubs, you wouldn't need a cross drive?

So 2 engines, 2 generators, 2 motors. anything else sounds like your arguing for 4 engines over the ocean........

Safety and redundancy of multi-engine systems is a complex and evolving field. What is unacceptably unreliable using one technology, demanding full redundancy, may be a lot better using a different technology.

For example combustion engines used to be so unreliable and lacking in reserve power that four was regarded as a minimum for safe transatlantic crossing. But turbofans have improved and so now it is safe to fly on only two giant ones. Even so, in the case of a single engine failure, the airliner must have a tail fin large enough to hold it straight.

But multi-rotor VTOL craft do not have the opportunity to use a fin. One might cut the other engine too and descend under autorotation. But if the certification authorities regard the risk of landing somewhere unacceptable, be it a dense city centre or the open ocean, then they will not accept that and will demand a cross-shaft and excess engine power, to keep both rotors powered.

Electric motors can fail for all kinds of reasons, especially when breaking new technological ground. Wires can come loose or break, or get eaten by vermin, batteries can burst into flames, control systems can malfunction. In such cases the rotor will windmill (unless feathered). Or, a bearing can overheat and seize; if there is no clutch the rotor will stop dead. In a small drone suck risks may prove acceptable, but not in a large passenger plane; the clutch at least will be mandatory, to allow autorotation.
In a twin-rotor design, as with combustion engines the lift from both the rotors must be maintained long enough for an emergency landing, be it autorotation or cross-shaft.
In a four-up design, excess power allows redundancy and any individual rotor failure can be balanced by adjusting the others, perhaps even stopping its opposite number and flying on two less. For example a quadrotor might be given sufficient reserve power to fly with two diagonally-opposite rotors powered and the others autorotating; no cross-shafts necessary unless the two-engine-out (next to each other) risk is also present.
But in the combustion world, more than four engines becomes a hazard in its own right, multiplying the chances of multiple failures and complex, accident-prone control systems. Anybody substituting electric power will need to demonstrate that these multiplication issues will not pose such a severe risk in their case. The risks will work out differently. For example in a 12-rotor system, a couple of seizures might be acceptable, but the risk of three units losing power, and having to cut too many others to maintain balance, might prove unacceptable.
 
4 engine configuration was a matter of the need to have enough power, not reliability.
The problem of trans-oceanic airliners is to carry enough fuel, hence have enough volume to hold all that fuel, hence the power to lift a large airframe.

That's when engine development gave enough power in a doublet configuration that reliability became the driving objectives to fit ETOPS requirements.
 
I'm just recalling that Tornado had manual revision for the tailerons(I can still recall the hours spend learning the changeover steps.....) but after that with unstable/FBW newer aircraft dont have it. Hence osprey has a crossover drive, but maybe the next ones wont.

To go all electric for a passenger aircraft, 4 rotors sounds better, at least for the next 10 years.

That draws me to 4 lifting, but 2 in the main wing, and 2 of the 4 able to rotate for 'normal' flight - no offence to any non-Binary type flyers intended.
 
4 engine configuration was a matter of the need to have enough power, not reliability.
They're two facets of the same safety case, in particular both reliability at normal power ranges and reliability under full power. Do we have the power to keep flying if we lose one, even if it means pushing the throttles to the stops on the remaining two or three (can't ignore the trijets), and what's the risk of losing another engine before we get to the nearest airfield because the remaining engines are now at full power. You had to add up the risk of losing an engine in normal operation and the risk of then having a second engine failure during the flight to your diversion field to make sure it all still fell within the acceptable risk ranges.

The A340 is pretty much a direct demonstration of putting in the engines for the reliability case even though the evidence - the A330 - was there that the power was there to do it with two. Unfortunately for A340's long-term economics, it then ran into FAA granting 120 minutes Early ETOPS - which was really controversial at the time- for the 777 and the rapid increase up to 340 minutes ETOPS that followed. Fortunately we were busy having a revolution in engine reliability at the time that actually was good enough to match the ETOPS spin-up.
 
I'm just recalling that Tornado had manual revision for the tailerons(I can still recall the hours spend learning the changeover steps.....) but after that with unstable/FBW newer aircraft dont have it. Hence osprey has a crossover drive, but maybe the next ones wont.
I seem to recall we had a manual reversion mode on the 777's tailplanes, though that's neutrally stable in pitch, rather that truly unstable. OTOH you can have reversion modes that don't have manual modes, but which deal with having hardware failures by switching it out to use what's left, or which revert to simpler control laws.
 
I'm just recalling that Tornado had manual revision for the tailerons(I can still recall the hours spend learning the changeover steps.....) but after that with unstable/FBW newer aircraft dont have it. Hence osprey has a crossover drive, but maybe the next ones wont.
I seem to recall we had a manual reversion mode on the 777's tailplanes, though that's neutrally stable in pitch, rather that truly unstable. OTOH you can have reversion modes that don't have manual modes, but which deal with having hardware failures by switching it out to use what's left, or which revert to simpler control laws.
Yes the tonka had those as well. Frankly why us ground dwellers needed to know what the aircrew were crying over, was not too clear, but it took up a lot of time.

I dont recall ever uttering the word' yes that would be the manual revision step 4 kicking in' as I'm doubtful many aircraft made it back with such a problem....
 
even cast irons and pigs could fly

Here is a French flying flatiron from 1937:

View attachment 664681

More seriously, I have to wonder whether a tiltrotor with additional jet engines for forward thrust makes any sense. The rotor is used for lift, but then why not just run up the jets, stop the rotor and fold it away like any carrier-borne chopper? Why all the tilt-everything-in-sight-first malarkey? Makes no sense to me, someone appears to be throwing out absurd concept artwork, but whether through ignorance or malice aforethought I neither know nor care.
I'd as likely bet my money on Professeur Nimbus there; he at least flew, if only as nose art on DH 88 Comet F-ANPY (formerly G-ACSR).
I think that you are on the pretty right path "the rotor is used for lift, but then why not just run up the jets, stop the rotor and fold it away like any carrier-borne chopper" . Actually, it's not me but Willy Messerschmitt himself... a small joke, but... Let just check his ideas for VTOL - Me 408 Rotorjet
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/messerschmitt-postwar-projects.29512/ or p2020
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/attachments/messerschmitt-me-p-2020-rotorjet-jpg.561555/
This is it - as you said, an old truth: open rotors are just ideal for a vertical flight, for lift, and far less suitable for a horizontal flight, for speed. Jet engines are just the opposite. How to merge it - this puzzles engineers since the beginning of flying.
One idea is to "tilt rotor or to tilt everything" but it does neither look nor work particularly great. Folding rotors concept obviously looks better even from a Bell perspective..
Meserrschmitt Me408 project was really innovative one and got even better with later variants when using wing mounted engines... In any case better than Bell HSVTOL "tilt everything approach"
 
(Moved from NGAD thread)I think Jetoptera's Art Department decided to do some trolling a while back with this funny looking F-16 AFTI evoking evtol with "Air Force" markings. There is no way this thing has any remaining space for weapons bays, or landing gear aside from the cockpit, those inlets must be fake too. Almost as bad as Collins NGAD.:

Unless, of course: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BiggerOnTheInside
 

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@X-39 - Well, if you want to promote your new platform that is designed to operate over vast areas that have very poor infrastructure, Africa is as good as any. Thanks for the address for the sexy video, rivals Marvel in many ways

Anyway, I have noted that Bell is looking for a fair amount of engineering talent these days. I thought I saw that Bell is looking to establish a facility in Pennsylvania. Not sure on that one though.
 
 
DARPA Selects Four Bids For Sprint Prototype Designs
Four companies will design competing prototypes for a DARPA program that aims to prove the feasibility of an aircraft that can fly at speeds up to 400 kt. and take off and land vertically. Aurora Flight Sciences, Bell, Northrop Grumman and Piasecki Aircraft each won Phase 1 awards from DARPA’s Speed...
 
Aurora Flight Sciences To Design High-Speed, Vertical Lift X-Plane
featured-SPRINT_2023-3.png
 
@admin: shouldn't we have a thread for Darpa Sprint program? I don't want to risk myself and create a doublon.
 
Small fans connected by a mechanical drive train - nothing new... I would be surprised if this goes beyond conceptual design.
Can't make Gigawatt class electric motors light enough yet.

Megawatt motors are under 100lbs, but that's only 1300hp. Good for a small plane, or a plane using a LOT of "small" props. The liftfan in the F35 is more like 40,000hp, and something the size of a C-130 would need 4x F135s with liftfans. (~40klbs thrust per engine, a C130J has a MTOW of 155klbs)

In all honesty, my quick and dirty VTOL C130 class transport would use 4x F135s without afterburners.
 
Can't make Gigawatt class electric motors light enough yet.

Megawatt motors are under 100lbs, but that's only 1300hp. Good for a small plane, or a plane using a LOT of "small" props. The liftfan in the F35 is more like 40,000hp, and something the size of a C-130 would need 4x F135s with liftfans. (~40klbs thrust per engine, a C130J has a MTOW of 155klbs)

In all honesty, my quick and dirty VTOL C130 class transport would use 4x F135s without afterburners.
And my own take would have done the same 55 years ago with 4*BS.100s.
 
The fan in wing drastically improves the flexibility to the logisticians and operational commanders with its fixed wing range, speed, with the flexibility of landing sites too. It does not however solve the CSAR/Medical Evacuation and to a lesser extent a set of the Special Operations missions.
The issue, I believe that while the fan in wing will likely not have the downwash velocities of a Harrier or F-35, I believe it would have greater down wash velocities than some of the missions called for. Higher than the current M/CV-22B. The Ospreys down wash velocity is already considered at the edge of viability for safe operations away from prepared surfaces. Certainly, the ability to land at much lower speeds on unimproved surfaces compared to a C-130 for instance, is a significant enhancement. However, mission sets that require prolonged VTOL, such as fast rope or foliage penetrator for CSAR seem very high risk. VTOL landing to small unimproved restrictive landing areas likewise would seem exceedingly high risk. This is more pronounce in those terrains where the bearing ratio of the land is that of a plowed field or less. While VTOL aircraft can overcome this challenge by maintaining hover and not putting the full weight on the landing gear, anything much higher velocity than the Osprey will likely begin to sling dirt and rocks in doing this. If I recall correctly there was a bit of Harrier lore from BAOR days about them "digging their own grave" on unimproved terrain and that the RAF had very effective engineers who could quickly establish "semi-improved" landing sites. While this might be a viable methodology still, I suspect that the ubiquitous ISR of our information age makes this higher risk. Roads and car parks in the parts of the world most likely to see this sort of operation tend to be high traffic volume areas, further exacerbating the observation challenge.
The ability of the fan in wing platform to move significant (C-130 sized loads[?]) over larger distances and perform VSTOL to roads and car parks is a drastic improvement over current runway dependent aircraft. I certainly hope to see the successful development of this concept for those reasons. I just do not see it fulfilling all of the mission sets that I have seen put forward for this HSVTOL program.
 

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