• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

DARPA DiskRotor

CammNut

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
296
Reaction score
5
Check out Steve Trimble's blog on flightglobal

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2007/10/boeings-next-big-vtol-surprise.html

It seems Boeing has a DARPA contract to study a disk rotor helicopter. Steve has located a Swiss company with a similar design (and some cool artwork):

www.diskrotor.com

And there has been a previous thread of secretprojects somewhere about the Modus Verticraft.
 

Attachments

  • learjet-disk-15[1].jpg
    learjet-disk-15[1].jpg
    77.6 KB · Views: 269

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,044
Reaction score
866
Swiss stuff away - DARPA should move along recent way with An-72 and immidiately hire prof. Pavlov from Kazan with his L-410-based Diskolyot)))
http://vtol.boom.ru/rus/Pavlov/index.html
 

Attachments

  • 1.jpg
    1.jpg
    13.8 KB · Views: 250
  • 2.jpg
    2.jpg
    121.7 KB · Views: 229

CJGibson

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2011
Messages
1,431
Reaction score
648
Here's its long lost British grand-dad. 1958 Royal Aircraft Establishment study for a high-speed anti-submarine aircraft. Rotors folded by hitting the brake and their momentum made them flip into the disc, which formed the fixed wing. More details in Air Britain Aeromilitaria from a couple of years ago. I'll dig it out the reference when I get home.

KB
 

Attachments

  • retractable_rotor.jpg
    retractable_rotor.jpg
    27.3 KB · Views: 245

JAZZ

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Mar 12, 2006
Messages
295
Reaction score
75
Tiawan's Modus was also looking at a disk-rotor concept. I was under the impression that this was still an active project??
 

Attachments

  • TAIWAN- Modus Vertijet_6.jpg
    TAIWAN- Modus Vertijet_6.jpg
    13.8 KB · Views: 93
  • TAIWAN- Modus Verticraft P_1.jpg
    TAIWAN- Modus Verticraft P_1.jpg
    11.8 KB · Views: 80
  • TAIWAN- Modus Veritjet_4.jpg
    TAIWAN- Modus Veritjet_4.jpg
    15.8 KB · Views: 246

CammNut

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Messages
296
Reaction score
5
I spoke to the inventor of the Modus Verticraft earlier this year. I also have a paper he gave at the AHS Forum this year. He is still looking for a backer. The Taiwan deal fell through years ago. He was hoping to get a small US Air Force Research Laboratory contract to windtunnell just the disc rotor, to investigate the transition from rotor- to wing-borne flight. But I have not heard anything.

The design has evolved a bit - the retractable blades are now more like GE90 fan blades than traditional rotor blades

I have also communicated with George Vranek, the guy behind the images on the diskrotor.com website, and he says he proposed the disk rotot idea to DARPA earlier this year - so maybe that's what started all this
 

vstol

ACCESS: Confidential
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
67
Reaction score
0
Website
www.vtol.org
Kelly Bushings said:
More details in Air Britain Aeromilitaria from a couple of years ago. I'll dig it out the reference when I get home. KB.

Kelly, any success in finding the reference and any further description? Thanks! Mike.
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,044
Reaction score
866
Via magic hint from Mike Hirchberg, we know that... http://www.darpa.mil/tto/Programs/DiscRotor.htm
 

Attachments

  • DiscRotor.jpg
    DiscRotor.jpg
    23 KB · Views: 163

AeroFranz

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,260
Reaction score
160
You'd think DARPA was burnt enough with the Heliplane and CRW. But it is an important mission to fulfill...maybe better luck this time?
 

ouroboros

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
353
Reaction score
6
Just call me Ray said:
Hey cool free AWACS coverage :)

I don't even want to begin thinking about how you would transfer high bandwidth bulk data from a high speed disk to the main body.
 

sferrin

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,384
Reaction score
1,424
ouroboros said:
Just call me Ray said:
Hey cool free AWACS coverage :)

I don't even want to begin thinking about how you would transfer high bandwidth bulk data from a high speed disk to the main body.

Probably the same with they do with other rotating-disc AWACS. ;) The real question is how do you get the radar to hold together when the disc is rotating at several hundred RPMs.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,673
Reaction score
3,465
Hi,

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3A27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3A714a4d2e-9a56-4547-8fde-6292a3789d39
 

Attachments

  • untitled.JPG
    untitled.JPG
    14.8 KB · Views: 48

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,384
Reaction score
532
The real question for DARPA will be if the weight and drag penalty of the disk is worth the VTOL performace.
 

Jemiba

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
8,222
Reaction score
930
"Is there a need for VSTOL AWACS? "

You should have asked the Royal Navy after their Falklkand experiences ... B)
 

AeroFranz

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,260
Reaction score
160
Anything looks better than this ;D
 

Attachments

  • AEW sea king.jpg
    AEW sea king.jpg
    34.8 KB · Views: 95

donnage99

"Robert Gates, is that you??" sublight
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
983
Reaction score
31
Jemiba said:
"Is there a need for VSTOL AWACS? "

You should have asked the Royal Navy after their Falklkand experiences ... B)
I meant US military. I can only think of the marines needing VTOL, but does AWACS fit into their doctrine at all?

P.S. the haweyes would do fine with the Royal Navy in the near future.
 

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,384
Reaction score
532
i really doubt there is any intention of attempting to put a radar in the disk, although for DARPA anything is possible.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,673
Reaction score
3,465
Hi,

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/05/darpa_disco_copter/
 

Attachments

  • disc_o_copter.jpg
    disc_o_copter.jpg
    18.6 KB · Views: 100

Just call me Ray

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
676
Reaction score
10
yasotay said:
i really doubt there is any intention of attempting to put a radar in the disk, although for DARPA anything is possible.

Yeah, I was just joking, but as they say, the joke ran away! :D
 

AeroFranz

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2008
Messages
2,260
Reaction score
160
It looks like the drawing above could work if instead of an Allison 250 that poor Loach had a T64...(make that two just for safety) ;)

seriously, what's with the dinky rotor? there is only so much you can bend the laws of physics.
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,673
Reaction score
3,465
Hi,

http://img256.imageshack.us/i/1032924956hv7.jpg/
 

Attachments

  • 1032924956hv7.jpg
    1032924956hv7.jpg
    78.3 KB · Views: 96

SSgt Baloo

ACCESS: Restricted
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
6
Reaction score
2
Website
www.geocities.com
I must be getting old. When I saw someone reference a "disco-copter" I immediately thought of a helicopter with big speakers, lights, and a mirrored ball hanging beneath, belting out Bee Gees tunes.

Where are my bellbottoms? (Psst! We could use a geezer smiley!)
 

fightingirish

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Messages
2,380
Reaction score
684
New stuff found at AW&ST blogs. B)

Boeing has concluded that a disc-rotor vertical take-off and landing aircraft is "feasible, but not easy". The company is studying a high-speed combat search-and-rescue concept under DARPA's DiscRotor program, and will test a model of the telescoping-blade rotor in the windtunnel next year.

Invented by Danish engineer Jacob Ellehammer early last century, the disc-rotor has a disc with blades attached that acts as a helicopter rotor in vertical flight and a wing in forward flight. Retracting the blades into the disc reduces drag in fixed-wing mode. NASA studied a Mach 0.85 disc-rotor in the late 1960s and took another look at the concept in the early 1990s.

The disc-rotor promises to combine the high cruise speed and altitude of a fixed-wing aircraft with the low-speed and hover capability of a rotary-wing aircraft, with low hover downwash and reduced radar signature when the blades are retracted. The low lift-to-drag ratio of the disc as a wing is an issue, so Boeing has added a swept wing to provide efficient lift in forward flight.

Boeing's conceptual CSAR DiscRotor has a dash speed of 360kt and radius of 400nm with a payload exceeding 2,400lb,, and at a mid-mission gross weight of around 31,000lb can maneuver at up to 4g, and hover in ground effect at 12,000ft density altitude - performance figures that are competitive with a tilt-rotor. Blades retracted and wings folded, DiscRotor takes up less deck space than a MV-22 or CH-53E

Developing a mechanism that will reliability and repeatably retract and extend the blades under flight loads (including centripetal forces) is the central technical challenge of the DiscRotor program, Boeing technical fellow Michael McVeigh told the International Powered Lift Conference in Philadelphia earlier this month.

To address the challenge, Boeing is building a 20%-scale rotor model for windtunnel testing next summer at speeds up to 150kt. This will have four blades, each with three telescoping sections, and a rigid hub with blade retraction and pitch-change mechanisms, and an eight-segment disc fairing.

The DiscRotor has an integrated propulsion system using two turboshaft engines fitted with fans so they can also generate forward thrust. Shaft power goes to the main gearbox to power the rotor and a pair of wing-mounted, cross-shafted ducted propellers that provide the majority of the thrust in fixed-wing mode.

Engine core and bypass exhaust goes aft to a thrust-vectoring nozzle in the tail that provides anti-torque control in helicopter mode, and during conversion between modes when the disc is being braked or accelerated, and also provides auxiliary thrust in forward flight. The disc is stopped in fixed-wing mode to avoid gyroscopic effects.

In helicopter-mode flight, the DiscRotor has conventional rotor collective and cyclic pitch controls. Hover anti-torque and yaw maneuvering is provided 70% by the tail thruster, and 30% by differential thrust on the ducted props. Rotor controls are phased out at 120kt and yaw control provided by the thruster and winglets, and pitch and roll control by wing flaperons.

Mid-way through Phase 1b of DARPA's program, McVeigh says "DiscRotor looks feasible, but not easy. It offers a large increase in cruise speed, but with several large technical challenges." The rotor model tests next year should help decide whether the concept is worth pursuing.
http://www.youtube.com/v/pg6LuwyNIxk

Text by by Graham Warwick at 10/22/2010 9:01 AM CDT.
All graphics and video by Boeing/DARPA
Sources: Boeing Updates on DARPA's DiscRotor
High-Speed VTOL Goes for a Spin
 

Attachments

  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_6.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_6.jpg
    35.3 KB · Views: 77
  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_5.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_5.jpg
    80.9 KB · Views: 89
  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_4.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_4.jpg
    45.1 KB · Views: 78
  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_3.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_3.jpg
    46.3 KB · Views: 86
  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_2.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_2.jpg
    33.8 KB · Views: 152
  • Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_1.jpg
    Boeing_DARPA_Discrotor_1.jpg
    25.9 KB · Views: 139

ouroboros

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
353
Reaction score
6
Jeesh, you'd think with a design like that, Boeing would want to team up with the X3 EADS guys...


I wonder if the telescopic blades would have any carryover to tiltrotors to improve disk loading. Weren't there some proposals in the past to do "blade within blade" style telescopic rotors, as a means of reducing the rotor disk diameter when in forward cruise?
 

yasotay

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,384
Reaction score
532
ouroboros said:
Jeesh, you'd think with a design like that, Boeing would want to team up with the X3 EADS guys...


I wonder if the telescopic blades would have any carryover to tiltrotors to improve disk loading. Weren't there some proposals in the past to do "blade within blade" style telescopic rotors, as a means of reducing the rotor disk diameter when in forward cruise?

I think Sikorsky looked at that when they were tinkering with tilt rotor in the late 80's to early 90's.
 

Lauge

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jan 30, 2008
Messages
435
Reaction score
7
fightingirish said:
New stuff found at AW&ST blogs. B)

[size=10pt]
.......Invented by Danish engineer Jacob Ellehammer early last century......

http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/ellehammer.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Ellehammer

;D

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg (expatriated Dane)
 

hesham

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
May 26, 2006
Messages
26,673
Reaction score
3,465
Hi,

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/2008/09/26/darpa-discopter-concept/
 

Attachments

  • 1.JPG
    1.JPG
    21.6 KB · Views: 379

RanulfC

ACCESS: Top Secret
Joined
Mar 6, 2009
Messages
926
Reaction score
374
Ok, question? While Boeing 'admits' that the disk-rotor would be "very difficult" but "possible" I seem to undertand that a majority of this is the aerodynamics of the "disk-wing" itself, is that correct?

So, why not a "traingle" or "hexagon" type wing instead, especially if you're going to have to have fairly large wings in addition to the rotor housing itself?

Links:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2140.msg64078.html#msg64078

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2140.msg64099.html#msg64099

Randy
 

Grey Havoc

The path not taken.
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2009
Messages
11,763
Reaction score
1,909
There are some indications that a successful manned DiskRotor design might be easier to achieve than an unmanned one.
 

Nik

ACCESS: Secret
Joined
Jul 15, 2009
Messages
394
Reaction score
21
IMHO, it's not so much the telescopic part, as doing all that while blades are 'swashing'...


Don't rotor blades' pitch vary significantly along their length ? That's another factor to contend with...


Ironically, an 'auto-gyro' version might be straight-forward...
 

flateric

ACCESS: Above Top Secret
Staff member
Top Contributor
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2006
Messages
9,044
Reaction score
866
...
 

Attachments

  • diskrotor.jpg
    diskrotor.jpg
    230.6 KB · Views: 200

sferrin

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,384
Reaction score
1,424
Nik said:
IMHO, it's not so much the telescopic part, as doing all that while blades are 'swashing'...


Don't rotor blades' pitch vary significantly along their length ? That's another factor to contend with...

Yep. There's a Sikorsky in-house video out there where they mounted a camera on the rotorhead of a CH-53 and pointed it down the length of the blade. That thing is all over the place in flight.
 

Sundog

ACCESS: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
2,820
Reaction score
266
Nik said:
IMHO, it's not so much the telescopic part, as doing all that while blades are 'swashing'...


Don't rotor blades' pitch vary significantly along their length ? That's another factor to contend with...


Ironically, an 'auto-gyro' version might be straight-forward...

In forward flight, yes. However, this isn't supposed to go as fast as a helicopter would with it's rotor in helo mode, so it won't be as much of a problem with this since they will be retracted well before it reaches the forward operating speeds of a standard helo.
 

aam641

One needs a personality to have a personal text!
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
107
Reaction score
6
fightingirish said:
The DiscRotor has an integrated propulsion system using two turboshaft engines fitted with fans so they can also generate forward thrust. Shaft power goes to the main gearbox to power the rotor and a pair of wing-mounted, cross-shafted ducted propellers that provide the majority of the thrust in fixed-wing mode.

Engine core and bypass exhaust goes aft to a thrust-vectoring nozzle in the tail that provides anti-torque control in helicopter mode, and during conversion between modes when the disc is being braked or accelerated, and also provides auxiliary thrust in forward flight. The disc is stopped in fixed-wing mode to avoid gyroscopic effects.

Has anybody previously heard about turbo-shaft engines with bypass air? What would be the point?

Also, looking into my crystal ball, I foresee the gearbox leading to massive cost over-runs.
 

sferrin

ACCESS: USAP
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2011
Messages
13,384
Reaction score
1,424
AdamF said:
fightingirish said:
The DiscRotor has an integrated propulsion system using two turboshaft engines fitted with fans so they can also generate forward thrust. Shaft power goes to the main gearbox to power the rotor and a pair of wing-mounted, cross-shafted ducted propellers that provide the majority of the thrust in fixed-wing mode.

Engine core and bypass exhaust goes aft to a thrust-vectoring nozzle in the tail that provides anti-torque control in helicopter mode, and during conversion between modes when the disc is being braked or accelerated, and also provides auxiliary thrust in forward flight. The disc is stopped in fixed-wing mode to avoid gyroscopic effects.

Has anybody previously heard about turbo-shaft engines with bypass air? What would be the point?

Also, looking into my crystal ball, I foresee the gearbox leading to massive cost over-runs.

"Shaft power goes to the main gearbox to power the rotor and a pair of wing-mounted, cross-shafted ducted propellers that provide the majority of the thrust in fixed-wing mode."
 

Similar threads

Top