Covid-19 Vaccine - Where, How & Costs

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Covid-19: Oxford-AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine approved for use in UK https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55280671

They are going down to one dose probably on the idea of having a lot of people with some protection rather than less with slightly more is better especially as this vaccine the differences seem more marginal between one and two doses.
 
Nigelhg said:
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
Plus naturally generated immunity isn’t the same as that conferred by vaccination I believe people who have had it will also be required to be vaccinated.
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Wouldn't naturally generate immunity be BETTER than a vaccination? :confused:
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Not really working-i know a couple of folk who have had it twice now.
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Huh. I know exactly one person who's had it. They're in their 70s and were fine in a couple days.
 
The vaccine comes in two parts. You need BOTH.
 
From Facebook, posted by a nurse;

In our Covid ICU, we went from 9 Covid patients to 21 in the past week. To say they are very sick is a gross understatement.

When I see so many people on Facebook downplaying the seriousness of Covid, I have many emotions. The most prevalent feelings include angry, frustrated, sad, and disheartened. I’m also just incredibly tired.

I’ve held the hands of Covid patients that are struggling to breathe and are frightened and alone.
I’ve facilitated video calls between Covid patients and their families so they could say their final goodbyes.

I have heard my Covid patients say “If I only knew...” and “I didn’t think it would be this bad...” To be honest, these statements are tough to process because the ENTIRE WORLD has been told of the seriousness of this virus.

It is real. It is bad. Masks work. Social distancing works. The vaccine is necessary.

Please don’t debate with me. I really can’t take one more person that works in construction, the bank, retail, the food industry, blah blah blah something else that’s not on the frontlines of caring for Covid patients spewing some political, personal, selfish BS that downplays the importance of masking, distancing, and staying home.

I am a nurse. I am tired.
 
Flyaway said:
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
sferrin said:
Foo Fighter said:
The vaccine comes in two parts. You need BOTH.
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Hard pass.
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Considering my uncle recently died of covid I have a very low opinion of people who say crap like this.
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Considering my uncle survived it I have a very low opinion of people who say crap like this. See how that works?
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Well stop acting like an idiot over vaccinations.
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Well stop acting like a Karen and keep your nose out of my business.
 
Flyaway said:
From Facebook, posted by a nurse;

It is real. It is bad. Masks work. Social distancing works. The vaccine is necessary.
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If masks and social distancing work then the vaccine is clearly NOT necessary.
 
Use of masks and social distancing reduce transmission but do NOT prevent it. Also, many people could not follow an instruction if their lives depended on it, problem is that OUR lives depend on it too. If we do this properly we may come out of this with our heads on and pointing the right way after all, just about every virus has hit the species hard at some time but, we need to treat it with respect. Chances are I will not be able to have the vaccine so if I come into contact with some of these people NOT following instruction, an infection will probably kill me. Can we keep this a little lighter please? Opinions are our own and we are entitled to them full stop. Stay well folks.
 
Foo Fighter said:
Use of masks and social distancing reduce transmission but do NOT prevent it. Also, many people could not follow an instruction if their lives depended on it, problem is that OUR lives depend on it too. If we do this properly we may come out of this with our heads on and pointing the right way after all, just about every virus has hit the species hard at some time but, we need to treat it with respect. Chances are I will not be able to have the vaccine so if I come into contact with some of these people NOT following instruction, an infection will probably kill me. Can we keep this a little lighter please? Opinions are our own and we are entitled to them full stop. Stay well folks.
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I would NEVER put myself in a situation where I was putting somebody at risk who didn't sign up for it.
 
sferrin said:
Nigelhg said:
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
Plus naturally generated immunity isn’t the same as that conferred by vaccination I believe people who have had it will also be required to be vaccinated.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't naturally generate immunity be BETTER than a vaccination? :confused:
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Not really working-i know a couple of folk who have had it twice now.
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Huh. I know exactly one person who's had it. They're in their 70s and were fine in a couple days.
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My 40-something dentist died of it. No underlying health conditions but he spent a month on a ventilator and then passed away.
 
TomS said:
sferrin said:
Nigelhg said:
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
Plus naturally generated immunity isn’t the same as that conferred by vaccination I believe people who have had it will also be required to be vaccinated.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't naturally generate immunity be BETTER than a vaccination? :confused:
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Not really working-i know a couple of folk who have had it twice now.
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Huh. I know exactly one person who's had it. They're in their 70s and were fine in a couple days.
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My 40-something dentist died of it. No underlying health conditions but he spent a month on a ventilator and then passed away.
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Yeah, not sure what to make of it. Kills some healthy people but then some not-so-healthy people barely notice it. Have other flus been like that?
 
sferrin said:
Yeah, not sure what to make of it. Kills some healthy people but then some not-so-healthy people barely notice it. Have other flus been like that?
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Honestly, most every serious disease works like that. Some people who seem otherwise healthy get very sick from a specific disease, others who have all sorts of health issues just shrug it off.
 
TomS said:
sferrin said:
Yeah, not sure what to make of it. Kills some healthy people but then some not-so-healthy people barely notice it. Have other flus been like that?
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Honestly, most every serious disease works like that. Some people who seem otherwise healthy get very sick from a specific disease, others who have all sorts of health issues just shrug it off.
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Guess that makes sense. Got the flu once a few years back and it kicked my ass. The Mrs didn't get so much as a sniffle.
 
sferrin said:
Flyaway said:
From Facebook, posted by a nurse;

It is real. It is bad. Masks work. Social distancing works. The vaccine is necessary.
Click to expand...
If masks and social distancing work then the vaccine is clearly NOT necessary.
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sferrin said:
The lockdown worked, social distancing works, masks help prevent the spread- the vaccine is necessary if we are to move past this.
sferrin said:
TomS said:
sferrin said:
Yeah, not sure what to make of it. Kills some healthy people but then some not-so-healthy people barely notice it. Have other flus been like that?
Click to expand...

Honestly, most every serious disease works like that. Some people who seem otherwise healthy get very sick from a specific disease, others who have all sorts of health issues just shrug it off.
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Guess that makes sense. Got the flu once a few years back and it kicked my ass. The Mrs didn't get so much as a sniffle.
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That is part of the problem with this one- we all know folk who've had it but there's been no real issue- I unfortunately know a few who have died and others who have been very seriously ill- it affects people in almost a random way which makes people complacent and has led to the spread.
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I'll get the shots as soon as they become available for people like me - which unfortunately means it'll likely be the second half of 2021 before there is any realistic chance. My grandmother of 92 is scheduled to have her first injection in about a week, however.

By now I know quite a few cases, though none fortunately among the closest friends and family. Although in spring one colleague was in contact with somebody who tested positive after showing symptoms, a week later he developed a fever himself. He got tested, but it came out negative - but since he also experienced some loss of taste he now suspects it might have been a false negative (swab improperly taken?). If so, I actually shook hands with somebody who was infected, because he showed up to work before learning of his acquaintance's test result and developing symptoms himself.

I even know one really severe case, a neighbour of my parents. ICU, ventilator, induced coma - the lot. Once they brought him back out of coma he even got a thrombosis into the bargain, as is a fairly common complication with ICU CoViD patients. His wife and kids got sick too, though it's unclear who infected whom - fortunately their symptoms were mild enough to ride out the infection in quarantine at home.

There is one thing that bothers me a lot, and it relates to both the disease and the vaccination skeptics. They frequently argue that the risk of long term side effects of the vaccine is too high, and it is true of course that to date nobody can say for sure what complications there might be. Trials of the vaccines have simply not been underway long enough for very long term effects to be observable in the patients enrolled.

But how big is that risk actually? Severe complications from vaccines are pretty rare, the commonly cited example of the swine flu vaccine is seemingly one of the worst, and it affected about 500 people out of 90 million who took it. None of them died, but here in Germany 33000 people (and counting) have been killed by CoViD out of "only" 1.7 million officially registered cases. If you assume many infections go unreported and that some of the deaths were due to another cause or that you might never get CoViD if you pass on vaccination (putting the denominator at 80 million German inhabitants), the probabilities still favour getting the jab. Even if it's as bad as the swine flu vaccine, you'd have a higher chance of *dying* from a CoViD infection than of suffering a *non-fatal* complication from the vaccination. And again, this apparently represents a pretty pessimistic scenario, statistically speaking the chances of the CoViD shots being less dangerous than their swine flu counterpart are quite good.

Then there's the fact that a CoViD infection potentially comes with its own long term complications - not all of which are known at this point either. To me, even those which are sound plenty terrible enough - I love endurance sports and I love food, so a permanent loss of 20% lung capacity or altered sense of taste/smell would be intolerable to me. And that's not some theoretical risk either - the wife of the neighbour mentioned above retains a permanent "chemical" scent!

So before we even get to the question of contributing to herd immunity even if you legitimately assess your own risk from the disease as minor, getting the shot looks pretty sensible. Yeah, it's not clear yet whether the vaccines will stop transmission (nobody has investigated that properly yet, because verifying effectiveness took priority), but again chances are pretty good that there will be at least some effect. The flu shot is reportedly an example where transmission remains possible, but even in this case vaccinated people are somewhat less infectious. From what I gathered, it would therefore seem to be quite unlikely that the CoViD shots would offer no reduction whatsoever in spread.
 
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A brand new disease never seen by a human population before is one of the sternest tests your immune system will face. It will have to analyse the infectious agent, then produce a unique tailored response to fight it from scratch. A vaccine is like getting a cheat sheet for the test.

Many of the symptoms of being ill are actually side effects of your body's immune response - it isn't the virus making you have a temperature, that's your body trying to fight it. Some of the people who have died from COVID have died from their immune response, in a cytokine storm.

That's why you can't assume "I'm fit and healthy, I'll be fine". You don't know how your immune system will fare. My wife always takes longer to get over any illness we both get. I also have Asthma. The immune system is thought to be a regulator of asthma by producing too many immune factors in response to a stimuli that should not cause such a reaction (dust, animal hair, cigarette smoke....). Maybe my overactive immune system is why I always get better quicker than my wife from colds and the like - but if I get COVID that might kill me in a cytokine storm.

Remember what happened when European explorers came into contact with native populations that had no previous exposure to endemic western diseases like the common cold. Perhaps the first time the common cold hit Europe, a lot of people died. We are all descendants of the survivors, whose immune systems passed that test.
 
[former FDA Chief Dr. Scott] Gottlieb warned that vaccinating Americans against Covid is more critical than ever, especially as the new South Africa variant appears to inhibit antibody drugs, and is spreading elsewhere.

"The South Africa variant is very concerning right now because it does appear that it may obviate some of our medical countermeasures, particularly the antibody drugs," Gottlieb told CNBC's "The News with Shepard Smith" on Tuesday.
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https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/06/south-africa-covid-strain-a-guide-to-what-you-need-to-know.html
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Remember what happened when European explorers came into contact with native populations that had no previous exposure to endemic western diseases like the common cold. Perhaps the first time the common cold hit Europe, a lot of people died. We are all descendants of the survivors, whose immune systems passed that test.
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I have often wondered how true this is. You could easily argue the other case, there must have been other bacterial diseases and viruses in the Americas that the European explorers would have had no immune response to. Why didn't they drop down with 'Aztec Colds'? Certainly diseases the Smallpox were deadly to all humans everywhere, but I wonder if colds etc. really were as deadly as the usual histories have it.

Covid will also evolve and try to overcome the brakes vaccines try to put on it.

The big choice now is how to administer the two-part vaccines. Make maximum use of current stocks and give as many people as possible good protection for a short time or give the full dose to a lesser number to keep them topped up for longer.

In the UK the gap between them will be 2-3 months rather than the 21 days Pfizer can guarantee the first jab will last for. Its a gamble that being safe for 3 weeks out of 12 is worthwhile.
Then there is a gamble that the second jab three months later will work as effectively if the first jab has ceased to provide immunity.

Its going to take three months (probably more) to give all 14 million at risk and elderly Brits their first jab. Presumably a second jab will take a similar time to accomplish (limits on production, ongoing first jabs for other groups, manpower limits etc.), so should complete around June.
If most of the adult population in the UK receives both jabs (minus a few million who object etc.) then it could take the best part of a year to achieve.

The $64M question is how long the second jab remains effective. A flu vaccine typically lasts six months (and is only 40-50% effective generally). So by December you'll have to start reimmunising those 14 milion at risk people again. Assuming vaccine production is no problem in 2022 it should take less than six months to cover all the at risk groups again. But mass immunisation of the greater bulk of the adult population on a rolling programme is going to be a never ending slog.
For example, this year 30 million people in the UK are eligible for a flu jab, so far (according to NHS and Pharmacy data) since September 2020 only around 12 million have been vaccinated (77% of over 65s and 44% of the under 65 at risk groups).

Given that two quite serious mutations have occurred after 9 months (not to mention the many lesser mutations), nature is still outstripping our ingenuity. Anyone who thinks the vaccine is a magic bullet that will get life back to pre-Covid days is probably wildly optimistic.
 
Although the basic principle of antibodies is widely understood it would only make one chapter in a book that described how the bodies natural defence system functions. T Cells are the first line of defence using complex mechanisms which are not fully understood. There’s quite compelling evidence that the T cell response imprints from a previous infection in a way which is very long lasting and possibly even pass on genetically. The T cell response is quick and it’s strength usually regulates the severity of the symptoms. Indeed one of the problems of a something completely new is that there is no T Cell activity, and the antibody response is too slow. Anyway I don’t know nearly enough about this subject other than the bits and pieces above.

In general this is a reason to be a bit more optimistic.
 
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Hopefully we can see the end of the tunnel even if the light is not in view/switched on yet.
 
Hood said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Remember what happened when European explorers came into contact with native populations that had no previous exposure to endemic western diseases like the common cold. Perhaps the first time the common cold hit Europe, a lot of people died. We are all descendants of the survivors, whose immune systems passed that test.
Click to expand...

I have often wondered how true this is. You could easily argue the other case, there must have been other bacterial diseases and viruses in the Americas that the European explorers would have had no immune response to. Why didn't they drop down with 'Aztec Colds'?
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There are several reasons usually given:
1) The biggest is Old World genetic diversity was *vastly* greater than New World. This also meant that Old World *diseases* were vastly more diverse. The Old World populations were forever dealing with some horrific new plague that just came off the camel train or the spice boat. Britons interacting with people who have interacted with people who had been in Ethiopia or China or India or Finland or Mali... that sort of thing keeps the pot stirring. There was not nearly that kind of either genetic diversity or even mass commerce in the Americas.
2) Old World people had different animals. in particular great apes, horses, pigs. Humans were in contact with all of them... this kept cross-species diseases doing their thing. And with apes, it's all the easier.
2.5) As Old Worlders had the horse and the wheel, while New Worlders didn't, Old Worlders could and did travel a lot more. If, say, the only way for the people of Wuhan to reach the rest of the world was to *walk* there, Covid 19 wouldn't be a thing.
 
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Pepvar’s first goal should be supporting the production of enough doses to vaccinate the entire world within a year. It is estimated that building such capacity for an mRNA vaccine like Moderna’s would cost less than $4 billion — that’s significantly less than the U.S. government already spends each day on Covid-19 relief — with the cost about $2 per dose. Of course, making the vaccines is just the first step: Pepvar must also provide countries, including our own, with the resources needed to distribute and deliver the vaccines with great urgency.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/opinion/world-covid-vaccines.html
 
Orionblamblam said:
Hood said:
overscan (PaulMM) said:
Remember what happened when European explorers came into contact with native populations that had no previous exposure to endemic western diseases like the common cold. Perhaps the first time the common cold hit Europe, a lot of people died. We are all descendants of the survivors, whose immune systems passed that test.
Click to expand...

I have often wondered how true this is. You could easily argue the other case, there must have been other bacterial diseases and viruses in the Americas that the European explorers would have had no immune response to. Why didn't they drop down with 'Aztec Colds'?
Click to expand...
There are several reasons usually given:
1) The biggest is Old World genetic diversity was *vastly* greater than New World. This also meant that Old World *diseases* were vastly more diverse. The Old World populations were forever dealing with some horrific new plague that just came off the camel train or the spice boat. Britons interacting with people who have interacted with people who had been in Ethiopia or China or India or Finland or Mali... that sort of thing keeps the pot stirring. There was not nearly that kind of either genetic diversity or even mass commerce in the Americas.
2) Old World people had different animals. in particular great apes, horses, pigs. Humans were in contact with all of them... this kept cross-species diseases doing their thing. And with apes, it's all the easier.
2.5) As Old Worlders had the horse and the wheel, while New Worlders didn't, Old Worlders could and did travel a lot more. If, say, the only way for the people of Wuhan to reach the rest of the world was to *walk* there, Covid 19 wouldn't be a thing.
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The herd animals are particularly important - many human diseases jumped species from pigs, sheep, cattle etc. Farmers live close to their herds and this increases the risk of exposure compared to hunter gatherer societies.
 
overscan (PaulMM) said:
The herd animals are particularly important - many human diseases jumped species from pigs, sheep, cattle etc. Farmers live close to their herds and this increases the risk of exposure compared to hunter gatherer societies.
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Interestingly, while living close to your critters leads you to be more likely to catch some new creeping crud, it also led to the end of plagues in a real sense. Jenners experiments with vaccinations came from witnessing zoonotic transmissions of cowpox.
 
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It comes as a novelty to me (I haven't heard elsewhere such case among militaries) but French Navy sailors aboard the nuclear powered CdG aircraft carrier will be vaccinated prior to their departure:
« Les marins qui vont embarquer mi-février pour une mission opérationnelle seront vaccinés. Tout le monde en comprend bien évidemment les raisons », a estimé la ministre dans une interview à Var Matin. « Pour que les marins et les pilotes de chasse puissent accomplir en toute sécurité cette mission longue et importante, durant laquelle les capacités d’évacuation sanitaire seront limitées, il est nécessaire qu’ils soient vaccinés », a-t-elle ajouté, précisant que la campagne de vaccination avait commencé jeudi en accord avec le ministère de la Santé.
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“The sailors who will embark in mid-February for an operational mission will be vaccinated. Everyone obviously understands the reasons, ”said the [French MoD] in an interview with Var Matin. "So that sailors and fighter pilots can safely accomplish this long and important mission, during which medical evacuation capacities will be limited, it is necessary that they be vaccinated", she added, specifying that the vaccination campaign had started Thursday in agreement with the Ministry of Health.
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https://20minutes.fr/amp/a/2959483
 
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