Covid-19 Vaccine - Where, How & Costs

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Flyaway said:
Interesting article arguing that we need to change the language we use round vaccines. That overly optimistic language though useful short term in getting people vaccinated is then counter productive longer term as people engage in more risk behaviour and politicians make overly optimistic decisions like rushing through the end of mask wearing. That it’s actually better to dial down people’s expectations from being vaccinated and to frame the idea that vaccines are good as they give you some protection rather than none, but not a shield of steel.

For me I think it’s because I’m a crisis like this there is natural hope that science will provide us with a ‘magic bullet’ and with one bound we will be free of our problems. Rather than deal with the more complex and messy reality.

www.forbes.com

Why We Need To Change How We Talk About Covid-19 Vaccines

Dr. Joshua Liao discusses how framing can be used to combat over-optimism about vaccination, which contributed to premature decisions to drop masking and social distancing requirements and public confusion.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...

How complex is this really? Let's look at the scenarios.

100% vaccination in the U.S. does what? Leads to a number of "extremely rare" so-called "breakthrough infections." Which leads to most of the country returning to exactly what the average person, and Wall Street, wants: a return to mostly normal life.

A quick look at the actual future based on the present reality: The UK has approved an antibody cocktail for treatment. It's not a vaccine but if symptoms appear then a treatment is available to you.

The term "magic bullet" should be discarded because in the present, both in the U.S. and UK, scientists are working on actual solutions like an antiviral pill or capsule and something that will stop future viruses from killing people. That's reality.

The only "messy" part is the actions of individual people who ignore safety precautions, who are led to believe the vaccines are harmful and who make up the unvaccinated part of the United States, The actual result? ICU beds are filling up, primarily in the South.
 
Partial headline from a business/investor site: "Movie theater stocks get a boost from vaccine approval..." They have popcorn to sell and other goodies.
 
Flyaway said:
Interesting article arguing that we need to change the language we use round vaccines. That overly optimistic language though useful short term in getting people vaccinated is then counter productive longer term as people engage in more risk behaviour and politicians make overly optimistic decisions like rushing through the end of mask wearing. That it’s actually better to dial down people’s expectations from being vaccinated and to frame the idea that vaccines are good as they give you some protection rather than none, but not a shield of steel.

For me I think it’s because I’m a crisis like this there is natural hope that science will provide us with a ‘magic bullet’ and with one bound we will be free of our problems. Rather than deal with the more complex and messy reality.

www.forbes.com

Why We Need To Change How We Talk About Covid-19 Vaccines

Dr. Joshua Liao discusses how framing can be used to combat over-optimism about vaccination, which contributed to premature decisions to drop masking and social distancing requirements and public confusion.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...
It was well-known, but some politicians wanted newsworthy shots of themselves taking masks off, or pushed the notion of “Freedom Day”.
 
With full FDA vaccine approval, it's time to raise insurance rates on the unvaccinated

www.stltoday.com

Editorial: With full FDA vaccine approval, it's time to raise insurance rates on the unvaccinated

Approval takes away the excuse that the vaccine's development was rushed and, thus, it is too dangerous. There's no longer any excuse.
www.stltoday.com www.stltoday.com

"Health insurance companies today can legally charge smokers up to 50% more in premiums than non-smokers, based on the simple fact that smokers have made a dangerous lifestyle choice. As the latest surge in the coronavirus pandemic ravages America — especially those portions of America where misguided ideological rejection of science has spurred people to refuse the vaccine — some advocates are calling for making the willfully unvaccinated pay higher insurance rates to cover the costs they’re incurring in the health care system."
 
As ever a simplistic headline that in no way reflects the more complicated picture presented in the actual article itself.

Covid infection protection waning in double jabbed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58322882

Also a friend who is from New Zealand has now told me that his family out there have told him to quote “Vaccination programme is getting accelerated as a priority.”
 
Interesting read, indeed. Thank you @Flyaway :

I think we should post the long term effectiveness rates of all known vaccines as clearly as possible for all interested:
(from the link above)
Based on PCR test results from nearly 400,000 people who had been infected with the Delta variant in the UK, it found two doses of the Pfizer vaccine was initially more than 90% effective against symptomatic Covid infection, compared to around 70% for the AstraZeneca vaccine.

But over the course of three months, the protection from Pfizer fell significantly whereas immunity with the AstraZeneca jab remained more stable.
[...]
Protection after two shots of Pfizer decreased from 88% at one month to 74% at five to six months.

For AstraZeneca, the fall was from 77% to 67% at four to five months.

Waning protection is to be expected, say experts.
Click to expand...
 
TomcatViP said:
Interesting read, indeed. Thank you @Flyaway :

I think we should post the long term effectiveness rates of all known vaccines as clearly as possible for all interested:
(from the link above)
Based on PCR test results from nearly 400,000 people who had been infected with the Delta variant in the UK, it found two doses of the Pfizer vaccine was initially more than 90% effective against symptomatic Covid infection, compared to around 70% for the AstraZeneca vaccine.

But over the course of three months, the protection from Pfizer fell significantly whereas immunity with the AstraZeneca jab remained more stable.
[...]
Protection after two shots of Pfizer decreased from 88% at one month to 74% at five to six months.

For AstraZeneca, the fall was from 77% to 67% at four to five months.

Waning protection is to be expected, say experts.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Frack. Then again, it is merely some 10 - 15% less over six months...
 
Delta Air Lines to charge unvaccinated workers $200 a month


"Delta Air Lines on Wednesday said it will begin charging unvaccinated workers a hefty monthly sum.

In a memo sent to employees, CEO Ed Bastian said unvaccinated employees who participate in the airline's health care plan will incur an additional $200 monthly fee beginning in November. The impetus for the surcharge is the high cost of hospital stays for COVID-19 patients and the risk they pose to the company's earnings, he said.

"The average hospital stay for COVID-19 has cost Delta $50,000 per person. This surcharge will be necessary to address the financial risk the decision to not vaccinate is creating for our company," Bastian said in the memo.

Bastian indicated that all Delta employees who have been hospitalized with COVID-19 were not fully vaccinated. Starting September 30, only fully vaccinated workers who experience a breakthrough infection and have to miss work will qualify for paid sick leave."
 
Vaccination campaigns, France:

Despite a slow start, France reached this week over 70% of its people fully vaccinated, including 78% of its teachers (what would ease school re-opening next September).
However, daily infections rates are soaring dramatically and a booster shot is now planned:

The daily new infections increased by 5,166 over 24 hours, but were down by 11.4% versus last Monday. And the seven-day moving average of daily additional cases decreased to 21,130 versus 23,783 10 days ago.

"Regarding ICU patients, the peak of this fourth wave could be reached in the days to come", Health Minister Olivier Veran told BFM, adding he remained wary of a possible back-to-school effect in a week's time.

He also said France's main independent health authority would soon recommend a third COVID-19 for those older than 65 years.
Click to expand...

www.reuters.com

France's COVID-19 hospitalisations highest in 2 months

French health authorities said on Monday the number of people hospitalised for COVID-19 and those treated in intensive care units (ICU) stood at the highest levels in more than two months, as the Delta variant of the disease has put a renewed strain on the health system.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
Japan suspended the use of 1.63 million doses of Moderna Inc's (MRNA.O) COVID-19 vaccine on Thursday, more than a week after the domestic distributor received reports of contaminants in some vials.

Both Japan and Moderna said no safety or efficacy issues had been identified and the suspension was just a precaution. But the move prompted several Japanese companies to cancel worker vaccinations planned for Thursday.
Click to expand...
www.reuters.com

Japan suspends 1.6 mln doses of Moderna shot after contamination reports

Japan suspended the use of 1.63 million doses of Moderna Inc's COVID-19 vaccine on Thursday, more than a week after the domestic distributor received reports of contaminants in some vials.
www.reuters.com www.reuters.com
 
kocovgoce said:
it would be best to develop more vaccines based on inactive virus
Click to expand...

The number of live vaccine projects is tiny. I'm not certain there's even one has made it through clinical trials.
 
Just what is an acceptable rate of death annually. I believe this is something like getting on towards three times the level we accept for flu. I am sure someone will correct me on this, as I thought they do this kind of cost benefit analysis for quite a few things that lead to deaths, just normally it isn’t made public?

inews.co.uk

Boris Johnson 'privately accepts' up to 50,000 annual Covid deaths as acceptable, advisers say

i understands Downing Street will consider a cost-benefit analysis on both saving lives and effect of deaths on the UK economy before implementing contingency plans for further lockdowns
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
 
Flyaway said:
Just what is an acceptable rate of death annually. I believe this is something like getting on towards three times the level we accept for flu. I am sure someone will correct me on this, as I thought they do this kind of cost benefit analysis for quite a few things that lead to deaths, just normally it isn’t made public?

inews.co.uk

Boris Johnson 'privately accepts' up to 50,000 annual Covid deaths as acceptable, advisers say

i understands Downing Street will consider a cost-benefit analysis on both saving lives and effect of deaths on the UK economy before implementing contingency plans for further lockdowns
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
Click to expand...

The whole QALY field (Quality Adjusted Life Years) for measuring the worth of medical treatments is extremely dubious is you delve into it. They (in the UK NICE, in the US insurance companies) assess whether treatments are economically viable for medical conditions by asking people without the condition whether they believe their life would be worthwhile with condition X + treatment Y leading to impairment level Z. This in spite of it being well established that disabled people are much happier living with their conditions than non-disabled people believe they would be - the whole 'I'd rather be dead than in a wheelchair" thing.
 
Flyaway said:
That acceptable loses idea is something you get in wars. Like with the First World War etc.
Click to expand...
Furthermore, it's among military personnel who probably signed up for military service knowing the risks. Imposing this on a civilian population is wholly entirely unacceptable and hints that the person proposing this is dangerously lacking something upstairs about how to treat other people.
 
Isn't acceptable here to be understood as unavoidable.
Long term planning and assessment need to build a picture of what would represent a failure and what not.


On another note:

t.co

Most private insurers are no longer waiving cost-sharing for COVID-19 treatment - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

Federal law requires all private insurance plans to cover the entire cost associated with approved COVID-19 testing so long as the test is deemed medically appropriate. Additionally, the U.S. government pre-paid for COVID-19 vaccines and required COVID-19 vaccines be made available at no...
t.co t.co
 
TomcatViP said:
Isn't acceptable here to be understood as unavoidable.
Long term planning and assessment need to build a picture of what would represent a failure and what not.


On another note:

t.co

Most private insurers are no longer waiving cost-sharing for COVID-19 treatment - Peterson-KFF Health System Tracker

Federal law requires all private insurance plans to cover the entire cost associated with approved COVID-19 testing so long as the test is deemed medically appropriate. Additionally, the U.S. government pre-paid for COVID-19 vaccines and required COVID-19 vaccines be made available at no...
t.co t.co
Click to expand...
See this is what I was struggling with as I am sure I’ve heard this kind of thing used before by governments outside of the military context.
 
Flyaway said:
Just what is an acceptable rate of death annually. I believe this is something like getting on towards three times the level we accept for flu. I am sure someone will correct me on this, as I thought they do this kind of cost benefit analysis for quite a few things that lead to deaths, just normally it isn’t made public?

inews.co.uk

Boris Johnson 'privately accepts' up to 50,000 annual Covid deaths as acceptable, advisers say

i understands Downing Street will consider a cost-benefit analysis on both saving lives and effect of deaths on the UK economy before implementing contingency plans for further lockdowns
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk
Click to expand...

Human behavior cannot be controlled, unless a government decides to make the attempt. In any situation involving a virus like this, there should be qualified scientists giving best and worst case scenarios to a country's leader. That is what intelligence gathering is for.

Now imagine that you are the Prime Minister and you look at what's going on with concern. You think, "How bad will it get?" You then think about people who are needlessly putting themselves in harm's way. Dying for no reason, as is the case now in the United States. So you turn to your top scientific advisor for some idea of the cost in lives. The question is, "How far will this go?" followed by "What will be the final tally?"

Behavioral scientists knew from the start that some people anywhere in the world would refuse the vaccines. Every year, there are people in the U.S. who do not get a flu shot.

I urge a lack of surprise. This is the way it is. And no, The Media, in its bloodlust, refuses, for the most part, to publish information like this. It would be found in medical journals using precise language generally not understood by the public. The solution to this? Ask your doctor.
 
Flyaway said:
That acceptable loses idea is something you get in wars. Like with the First World War etc.
Click to expand...

This is a wartime situation. It puts national security at risk. Your troops need to be inoculated against anything that might degrade their effectiveness regardless of where they are deployed. This is no different. The Pentagon has just ordered all service members to be inoculated as soon as possible, or faster.
 
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