Chinese Xi'an Y-20 Transport Aircraft

[flateric]

from CDF

 

[Dragon029]

This reminds me of the C-15 and C-17 powering. Looks to me this thing is underpowered. Unless the chinese have a very high T/W ratio or a very long runway.

It might not need too long a runway; I imagine it'd still require less than a 3km runway for take off. And as for purpose, I imagine that China could utilise this aircraft (in the interim of further engine development) like Australia uses the C-17.

Obviously China is a far larger nation with a larger demand for transport, but remote locations can always just be serviced by the older side of the fleet.

 

[chuck4]

This reminds me of the C-15 and C-17 powering. Looks to me this thing is underpowered. Unless the chinese have a very high T/W ratio or a very long runway.

The small intake means low massflow. More likely they are using an engine of adequate power but low bypass ratio. So the plane would be similar to 1960s era transports in having adequate flight performance but high fuel consumption and low range.

 

[chuck4]

Looks like an AN-70 with jets.

taking Antonov guys help into account...

Having help doesn't mean the products end up visually resembling the work of the helpers. Lately Chinese products that owe something to Russian design input, like JF-17 or type 053C DDG, ended up looking nothing like Russian products. The chinese seem now interested more in specific Russian solutions to detailed engineering problems than the overall Russian designs. They either copy outright, or try to go indigenous as much as possible and only adopt specific Russian solutions to specific problems they can't overcome. They copy to learn, and are not constitutional copycats.

 

[latenlazy]

Looks like an AN-70 with jets.

taking Antonov guys help into account...

Having help doesn't mean the products end up visually resembling the work of the helpers. Lately Chinese products that owe something to Russian design input, like JF-17 or type 053C DDG, ended up looking nothing like Russian products. The chinese seem now interested more in specific Russian solutions to detailed engineering problems than the overall Russian designs. They either copy outright, or try to go indigenous as much as possible and only adopt specific Russian solutions to specific problems they can't overcome. They copy to learn, and are not constitutional copycats.

It's nice to meet someone who understands the nuance. Word is that the engine is a D30KP. Probably an interim engine until they can get something better.

 

[jimzhangzhang]

The painter is 钢铁机机（Gang tie ji ji， or iron plane in English).

 

[Deino]

Reportedly a commercial US satellite spotted the Y-20 on Christmas at the CFTE at Xi'an-Yanglian during its taxi tests ....

 

[Deino]

Here:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/chinas-new-transport/

Deino

 

[Deino]

A PS to the Y-20 report posted above, this is IMO a much better written report by Andrew Erickson found at

http://thediplomat.com/2013/01/08/limited-liftoff-looming-y-20-transport-prepares-for-1st-test-flight/?all=true

+ some new calculations via http://bbs.fyjs.cn/htm_data/27/1301/854856.html

 

[Deino]

Bai Wei again ... but IMO the diameter looks a bit smaller than in the latest images ! ???

 

[Matej]

According to Piotr Butowski, engines are Russian D-30KP2. China bought 55 engines in 2009 - 2011 with additional order of 184 more to be delivered since October 2012 till 2015. It is significantly more than they are able to use for Il-76/Il-78.

 

[Deino]

Yes, since they badly need them for the H-6K too !

 

[SlowMan]

The small intake means low massflow. More likely they are using an engine of adequate power but low bypass ratio. So the plane would be similar to 1960s era transports in having adequate flight performance but high fuel consumption and low range.

The Chinese had no choice.

Westerm civilian jet engines are not available for the jet as it is a military aircraft, and China is unable to produce large and powerful engines yet. Must do with what they could get from Russia. The Japanese faced a similar problem as the Chinese but the Japanese had the US(GE) engines available to them.

It might not need too long a runway;

This jet doesn't appear to have STOL, so it will operate mostly within China.

 

[GTX]

This jet doesn't appear to have STOL, so it will operate mostly within China.

How do you figure that?

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

The small intake means low massflow. More likely they are using an engine of adequate power but low bypass ratio. So the plane would be similar to 1960s era transports in having adequate flight performance but high fuel consumption and low range.

The Chinese had no choice.

Westerm civilian jet engines are not available for the jet as it is a military aircraft, and China is unable to produce large and powerful engines yet. Must do with what they could get from Russia. The Japanese faced a similar problem as the Chinese but the Japanese had the US(GE) engines available to them.

It might not need too long a runway;

This jet doesn't appear to have STOL, so it will operate mostly within China.

They could have obtained PS-90A engines from Russia if they wanted somethig better. These are probably new D-30KP-2 engines.


I imagine the plan is to test the airframe with a known good, reliable engine and then substitute for the new Chinese engine when its ready.

 

[flateric]

I was said that tie to D-30 was caused by wish not to create another support chain for one more engine model till arrival of own hardware.

 

[Deino]

New images available, and reportedly maiden flight expected tomorrow ....

 

[SlowMan]

How do you figure that?

By looking at the size of leading edge slats and flaps. C-17's are huge. Y-20's look small by comparison, similar to civilian jets.

 

[GTX]

Whether it is STOL capable or not does not determine whether it will operate mostly within China... :


That is what I was asking you about.

 

[SlowMan]

Whether it is STOL capable or not does not determine whether it will operate mostly within China... :

That is what I was asking you about.

The Y-20 would only be able to land where commercial jets land. This would limit China's deployment options.

The C-17 can on the other hand land and take off where commercial jets can't.

 

[GTX]

And how often do you suppose the C-17 really makes use of the STOL capability? Reality check: most deployments go into full size runways.

 

[Deino]

Sorry, but You all see this from two grainy and blurred imges ... ?

 

[SlowMan]

And how often do you suppose the C-17 really makes use of the STOL capability?

Whenever a C-17 is landing in places like Mali and Algerian air fields, it's using the CTOL capability.

Y-20 would on the other hands be able to land in "International Airports" when deployed overseas.

 

[SlowMan]

nt, double post.

 

[Bill Walker]

The Canadian C-17 operating into Mali this week is using BKO, near the capital, with an 8,000+ foot paved runway. These deployments often are in support of a larger force, which needs long runways for other aircraft types. If the Y-20 is limited to "civil airline runways" it could still play an important part in these types of deployments outside of China.

 

[Deino]

The Y-20 has just performed ist maiden flight ..... between 14 - 15 h !

Deino

 

[overscan (PaulMM)]

In its own way this is just as important as the other "20".

 

[GTX]

Agreed

 

[lancer21]

Chinese TV video:

PS: Seems i can't post videos or links to . Anyway , just go on youtube and search Y20 clips from today.
PPS: Oh , and cogratulations to Xian and the chinese aerospace industry, it's a remarkable achievement. I guess now the yanks have a good reason to be affraid of the hordes of evil chinese paratroopers descending over them. Soon, very soon. ;D ;D ;D

 

[lancer21]

Here it is , thanks to GT @ CDF

 

[Trident]

Now what was that about its flap system being simple?! BTW, while similar to the Il-76, the high lift devices are clearly not the same either - the Y-20 has 6 flap track fairings to the Candid's 7.

 

[fightingirish]

Chinese TV video:

PS: Seems i can't post videos or links to . Anyway , just go on youtube and search Y20 clips from today.
PPS: Oh , and congratulations to Xian and the Chinese aerospace industry, it's a remarkable achievements. I guess now the yanks have a good reason to be afraid of the hordes of evil Chinese paratroopers descending over them. Soon, very soon. ;D ;D ;D

Link by Alert5 at YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G-PXJ1lu24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G-PXJ1lu24

 

[Deino]

Here the same image a bit larger + ....

 

[chuck4]

How do you figure that?

By looking at the size of leading edge slats and flaps. C-17's are huge. Y-20's look small by comparison, similar to civilian jets.

You tell this the same way you divine f-35 and f-15SE's frontal aspect RCS?

 

[Deino]

A few more ....

 

[Deino]

.... nice comparison, even if I would have added the An-70 in place of the A.400M.

 

[GTX]

Is that comparison to scale Deino?

 

[Deino]

No, I don't think so and to admit I simply posted it in regard to the comment/discussion on the Y-20's flaps ... otherwise I think it's smaller than the C-17.

Deino

 

[lancer21]

How do you figure that?

By looking at the size of leading edge slats and flaps. C-17's are huge. Y-20's look small by comparison, similar to civilian jets.

You tell this the same way you divine f-35 and f-15SE's frontal aspect RCS?

Actually, he's wrong on this one imo , the comparison image shows clearly that Y-20's high-lift devices are LARGER than the ones on C-17!
How big is Y-20 compared to it's competitors in the same class again ?

 

[kaiserbill]

Unfortunately, like I mentioned on another thread, certain un-named posters are quick with broad comments, never based on facts. It has to do with 2 or 3 particular countries in the region whos products are always downplayed in particular.
It was ludicrous to even pretend an analysis on it's wing lift devices with such tiny, poor aspect photos at the time anyway.

Unlike me in the other thread, it is best to just accept that this is how it is, and not retort.


Kudos to the Chinese.
This is a big, big development.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the engines right now.
It is after all a podded configuration that is a lot less problematic to upgrade when their indigineous engines d come online.

Deino, any revising of it's size, or was the satellite imagery borne out?