Changhe Z-8 / Z-18 transport helicopter

Deino

Deino

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I'm in fact surprised, there is not already a thread on this originally French-based SA-321Ja Super Frelon development ... and indeed it made a dramatic development!

Latest family member is the Z-8L wide-body variant ... in comparison to the already improved Z-8G.

Z-8L finally clear 1.jpg Z-8G vs Z-8L.jpg
 
Thank you Deino. How did France ended selling Super Frelons to the PRC ? never got the basic story of how it happened. France & Israel never used its full development potential because Puma and because Sikorsky CH-53. The PRC seems to love it.
 
I have always thought the development potential of the Super Frelon was relatively unrealised.
It held the world record for the fastest helicopter at one stage, and was Europe's largest production helicopter for 25 years.

Yet, only just over a hundred were built before China became interested.

From an aviation perspective, I am unsurprised China decided to develop it further, and am happy the design potential is at least being realised.

Edit: Archibald, I seem to recall China's interest stemmed from a naval helicopter requirement. I seem to remember the Super Frelon being China's first regularly operational ship borne helicopter, which is a large helicopter to cut your teeth on.
 
The Israelis did some daring rescues and raids with theirs. In France the few left did a splendid job rescueing sailors from crippled and sinking ships near Brittany and in the Channel for nearly 40 years until 2010 (Amoco Cadiz crew included).
The Israelis tried to put US turbines on theirs but it went all wrong and Sikorskys chased them away.
But yes, underdeveloped except by China.
 
I saw an interesting statement that Israel were going to order more, but this was stopped when they turned to the US instead of France as their major aviation supplier.
 
De Gaulle 1968 embargo to try and gain favor of Arab states (with the notable exception of Mirage V...I mean Neshers).
With perfect hindsight, not only France lost a good client, but it did not really helped in October 1973... it didn't spared the country the oil shock and according economic hardships.
 
Deino said:
I'm in fact surprised, there is not already a thread on this originally French-based SA-321Ja Super Frelon development ... and indeed it made a dramatic development!

Latest family member is the Z-8L wide-body variant ... in comparison to the already improved Z-8G.

View attachment 658313View attachment 658314
Click to expand...

With those big sponsons, it looks very S-92 . . .

cheers,
Robin.
 
Deino said:
I'm in fact surprised, there is not already a thread on this originally French-based SA-321Ja Super Frelon development ... and indeed it made a dramatic development!
Latest family member is the Z-8L wide-body variant ... in comparison to the already improved Z-8G.
Click to expand...
Yes, there is a topic on "Super Frelon and developments", but IMHO we should keep that topic for only French and Aérospatiale (formerly Sud Aviation) projects and developments of this helicopter. This topic should be only about the Chinese versions and projects of the Changhe Z-8 and its civilian version Avicopter AC313.
Maybe the mods can change the title and move some posts regarding the Changhe Z-8 from the "Super Frelon" topic to this topic.
 
Deino said:
I'm in fact surprised, there is not already a thread on this originally French-based SA-321Ja Super Frelon development ... and indeed it made a dramatic development!

Latest family member is the Z-8L wide-body variant ... in comparison to the already improved Z-8G.

View attachment 658314
Click to expand...
wow its certainly come a long way from this
36974_1329859815.jpg


you can barely recognize it.
kind of like how the Chinese kept updating the T-54/55 tank designs and MiG-21 design, it hardly resembles the original form.

on a related note its interesting that when it comes to fighter aircraft and tanks. they like to base it on Russian designs and evolve from there
but when its helicopters, they prefer basing it on French designs, then evolve into someething different.
 
Z-8L is a fine, solid looking helicopter. Would not be surprised to see it compete with other medium combat helicopters (Mi-17 and H-60 mostly) on the world market.
 
Perhaps the Mi-17, but the later Z-8's are in a whole different class to the UH-60. It's a 3 engine design of about 14t max weight, which is 40% heavier than the UH-60.
It's actually very similar in size to the large 3-engined AW101 Merlin, and both carry in and around 30 troops.
 
If it's 14 ton design, then it would compete with Mi-38. And 3 engines likely become an issue, because of additional fuel consumption.
Plus there is an Mi-171A3 on the horizon (though its mosty civilian variant, but it's possible that there would be a military one).
 
Anduriel said:
If it's 14 ton design, then it would compete with Mi-38. And 3 engines likely become an issue, because of additional fuel consumption.
Plus there is an Mi-171A3 on the horizon (though its mosty civilian variant, but it's possible that there would be a military one).
Click to expand...
on a related note, is the Mi-38 still around?
 
helmutkohl said:
Anduriel said:
If it's 14 ton design, then it would compete with Mi-38. And 3 engines likely become an issue, because of additional fuel consumption.
Plus there is an Mi-171A3 on the horizon (though its mosty civilian variant, but it's possible that there would be a military one).
Click to expand...
on a related note, is the Mi-38 still around?
Click to expand...
Well, yes, but, apparently Mi-8/171 developed so far that it became a rival to Mi-38 in most cases. Still there is a small contract from MoD, but not to extent of Mi-8 purchases.
 
Anduriel said:
helmutkohl said:
Anduriel said:
If it's 14 ton design, then it would compete with Mi-38. And 3 engines likely become an issue, because of additional fuel consumption.
Plus there is an Mi-171A3 on the horizon (though its mosty civilian variant, but it's possible that there would be a military one).
Click to expand...
on a related note, is the Mi-38 still around?
Click to expand...
Well, yes, but, apparently Mi-8/171 developed so far that it became a rival to Mi-38 in most cases. Still there is a small contract from MoD, but not to extent of Mi-8 purchases.
Click to expand...
im guessing the 171A3 is being built at the Ulan-Ude plant? and the 38 in Kazan?
so its a war between the Mongol plant and the Tatars lol
 
The Super Frelon was too large for its time. It was too large even for the ASW role the French used it in (the Royal Navy looked at it but even with the rotors folded it was a big beast), and despite its size and power it wasn't really a 'flying crane' in terms of lifting capacity, which is probably why the Germans went with the CH-53. An ASW Puma would have been a better Sea King-analogue for the French I think.
But as the demand for bigger load lifters has increased, Airbus Helicopters could maybe have fitted into a niche with an updated version with Makila turboshafts and composite blades.

The Z-8L certainly is a good looking helicopter though. How much wider is the fuselage?
 
Agreed that the Z-8L is significantly larger platform than the H-60. However, if you are a country with a smaller budget and you could get a Z-8L for the same price or lower than an H-60, you might consider it. Of course China has a long way to go on the maintenance and world wide logistics aspect of their product. It will be interesting to see how the world market will change in the coming decade with South Korea, Turkey, and China moving into the traditionally US, Russia, Europe led markets.
 
Hood said:
....could maybe have fitted into a niche with an updated version with Makila turboshafts and composite blades.
Click to expand...

This is the sort of development path I think should have happened too.
It looks as if China will now do something similar.... and more.
I think it's a smart programme from a Chinese perspective. The latest Z-8 versions are considerably further developed and modernised from the Super Frelon, and have given China a helicopter roughly in the AW101 Merlin category and capability bracket, as a brief perusal shows.
 
According to some posts, the AC313A iron bird is off the assembly line and as it seems, it differs to the military "wide body" Z-8L most of all for the engine nacelle.

(Image via @柳成梁/FB)

Z-8L - AC313A iron bird ready.png
 
Certainly an interesting mesh of Sikorsky/Airbus/Mil from what I can see. If you are going to copy success, might as well "cherry pick" the best of breed.
 
9f519e8bgy1idqts84bnzj20tw0kbdih.jpg
Z-8L with new engines (WZ-7?). Also apparently some naval Z-18F has also been fitted with the same engine. This would probably reduce operating costs while increasing endurance significantly due to alleged large upgrade in fuel efficiency and lifespan over WZ-6.

AFAIK, PLAGF procured a ton of Mi-171 was in part due to Z-8s being quite expensive to maintain due to its three engine layout made worse by WZ-6s being nearly half a century old in design and hence has very low lifespan and fuel economy. Perhaps this new engine could change the situation.
 
I am not even close to an expert on Chinese military aviation but 40 variations seems alot. Has it entered full rate production?
 
yasotay said:
I am not even close to an expert on Chinese military aviation but 40 variations seems alot. Has it entered full rate production?
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Kind of, PLA were never really happy with whatever they got with this so each variant was built in relatively small numbers but if you add all of them up you still get alot.
 
No, no, no, that's a bit exaggerated. Some of its derivative models are civilian versions.
 
SUPER=BUG said:
No, no, no, that's a bit exaggerated. Some of its derivative models are civilian versions.
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Glad to read that some are civil, but even two sub-variant can be a painful challenge to maintainers. The USMC just spent millions to make thirteen variations of MV-22 common.
Another challenge is that if more than one version in a unit is that aircrew may not be qualified on a version of the aircraft. This occurred in the U.S. Army with the venerable OH-58D.
 
EmoBirb said:
When has the PLA ever been happy with what they got, or any service for that matter
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Helicopters have always been a weak point of Chinese aviation. Army Aviation isn't too keen on Z-8s over Mi-171s due to high maintainence requirement of 3 engines that are of 60 years old in design, they've apparently switched to the brand new WZ-7 now but it's still 3 engines to take care of.
 
Tomboy said:
Helicopters have always been a weak point of Chinese aviation. Army Aviation isn't too keen on Z-8s over Mi-171s due to high maintainence requirement of 3 engines that are of 60 years old in design, they've apparently switched to the brand new WZ-7 now but it's still 3 engines to take care of.
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WZ-7? I found the Soaring Dragon HALE UAV but is there a helicopter with the same designation?
 
If the Z-20 is now a mature design that's being used for a wide variety of missions is there a need to keep developing the Z-8 ? It feels like they should have started work on a new clean sheet design years ago. That's the flaw with the Chinese helicopter sector. Too much reluctance to roll the dice and design something from scratch so they keep modernizing ancient designs.
 
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The Z-8's variants have a stronger carrying capacity than the Z-20 and are positioned differently, so it's not surprising that improvements will continue.

At the root, China's helicopter industry started late and the technology was not yet mature. On the other hand, domestic demand for helicopters has changed dramatically over the past 10 years. Think about it—back in 2010, the PLA didn’t seem to have an urgent need for heavy helicopters. The army could buy cheap and effective helicopters from Russia, and the navy is another story—the Type 075 and 076 only appeared in recent years. Besides, China's GDP back then was roughly on par with Japan's, so there wasn't really enough funding to launch a high-risk project. Continuing to improve the Z-8 and refine the related technologies is actually a very sensible and reasonable plan.
 
alberchico said:
That's the flaw with the Chinese helicopter sector. Too much reluctance to roll the dice and design something from scratch so they keep modernizing ancient designs.
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I am not sure that i would agree with this. There are several helicopter types Z-20, 21, as well as at least two coaxial compound test helicopters. If you include all rotorcraft there is also three (?) tilt rotor aircraft in testing. I will concede that there is no promise that any will actually come to fruition, but they are being flown.
 
Titus said:
WZ-7? I found the Soaring Dragon HALE UAV but is there a helicopter with the same designation?
Click to expand...
WZ-7 is the unconfirmed designation of a new turboshaft engine that is being installed on the latest Z-8s.
alberchico said:
If the Z-20 is now a mature design that's being used for a wide variety of missions is there a need to keep developing the Z-8 ? It feels like they should have started work on a new clean sheet design years ago. That's the flaw with the Chinese helicopter sector. Too much reluctance to roll the dice and design something from scratch so they keep modernizing ancient designs.
Click to expand...
Z-20 is in a different class to Z-8s, Z-8L/D and other wide body Z-8 designs are the only domestic helicopters that has a rear ramp and large enough to carry 4x4 vehicles, the only other that can also do thks in PLA service would be the Mi-171s from Russia.

Anyhow Z-8D once switched to using WZ-7 seems to be a solid design in its weight class for PLAN, Army Aviation on the other hand either has to make due with Z-8Ls or buy more Mi-171s.
 
alberchico said:
If the Z-20 is now a mature design that's being used for a wide variety of missions is there a need to keep developing the Z-8 ? It feels like they should have started work on a new clean sheet design years ago. That's the flaw with the Chinese helicopter sector. Too much reluctance to roll the dice and design something from scratch so they keep modernizing ancient designs.
Click to expand...

As others mentioned, they are in different weight classes and footprints.

Z-8 family is more like AW101 category, Z-20 is UH-60 category.


They reason they are continuing to modernize Z-8 is because the original aircraft architecture was good to begin with (drivetrain), and greatly modified to the Z-8L/D to essentially a new fuselage/cargo section. If anything it's a shame that France didn't continue with more advanced variants of the Super Frelon.
 
1000012377.jpg

It's said that this is an electronic warfare version of the Z-8G. A two-second shot of it appeared below the official video. How can this be confirmed?
 

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