Caproni Ca.183bis

Skybolt

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This comes from the Caproni technical description brochure. BTW, this was the bis version, with the Campini-like engine. There was a Ca-183 with a traditional engine (inline) adapted to high altitude, but no drawing, for now. Look at it as a competitor in the informal contest for a high altitude interceptor in 1942-1943. If interested, I have truckloads of technical data. Enjoy
 

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airman

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Re: Ca- 183bis

on :
http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/CC-2/CC-2.htm

there are more .... i attach also a nice drawing taken by this !
the technical data :" Engine: 1x Alfa-Romeo "Tifone"(Daimler-Benz DB-605) making 1,250 hp driving a six blade contrarotating propellor.
1x FIAT A.30 radial piston engine making 700 hp driving the Campini engine

Weight: Loaded 16.538 lb

Maximum Speed: 460 mph / 520 mph with "Thermojet"

Range: 1,242 miles

Crew: 1

Armament: 4x 20 mm cannons in the wings and 1x 30 mm cannon between the cylinder banks of the engine. "

This image is copyright by Robert Craig Johnson and appeared originally in Chandelle. [Administrator]
 

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Skybolt

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I'll post complete data later, for now I only say that the gun on the engine was a 20 mm one like the other four, not a 30 mm. Lot of legends on this project, as you see. BTW, I'm not convinced that the DB-605 transmission shaft could even house a 30 mm caliber gun...
 

Apophenia

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Wow, thanks for posting that Skybolt.

About 30mm cannons, did Italy even have such a gun? I have a vague memory that Scotti may have been working on something bigger than the Solothurn 20 x 138mm fired by their cannon and the Breda M35. Does this ring a bell with anyone?

The German DB605AS and DB605Ds could certainly take 30mm guns. Late Bf-109G-6s and 'G-10s had MK108s. Bf 109G-14/U6s had MK103s. The Bf 109K-4 could take either 30mm gun. Was there a Tifone equivalent to the 'AS or D?

But perhaps you meant that the contraprop transmission couldn't handle its job and a 30mm plus hole through the middle. That I can well believe. Besides, I think five 20mm cannon could handle most jobs! ;)
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Tifone was a modified 605 a-11. There was a project for a 27 and a 47 mm gun (this last for the Cannoniere version of the Santangelo Caccia Combattimento, one of the competitors in the heavy-attack informal contest of 1942-43, one of the other was the unbuilt BZ-304). Cannot remember the builders.
Transmission can be made whatever you like, provided you have the right alloys. The MCT, for example, had a spinner converter so large that it housed THREE 20 mm guns.
 

Apophenia

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Was the 47mm design related to the Breda 47/32 M.35?

I saw an online reference to an automated version in of the 47/32 M.35 in the Fiat AS-14 (although most refs say 37mm). But I digress ... ;D
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Skybolt said:
This comes from the Caproni technical description brochure. BTW, this was the bis version, with the Campini-like engine. There was a Ca-183 with a traditional engine (inline) adapted to high altitude, but no drawing, for now. Look at it as a competitor in the informal contest for a high altitude interceptor in 1942-1943. If interested, I have truckloads of technical data. Enjoy

The Ca-183 bis is bigger than I thought it to be. Based on the size of the DB 605, that can be seen in the drawing, it must have a span of 23.5 m and a length of 14.8 m. The fuel tanks in the wing roots must be of 700 lt each.

Assuming that the DB 605 has a consumption rate of 400 lt/h, 200 lt/h in the case of the A-30 and 1200 lt/h for the thermojet, the flight endurance should have been of approximately fortyfive minutes, using the three engines all the time.
 

Skybolt

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Data from the brochure:

Span: 21 mts
Wing area 42,5 sqMts
GTOW: 7500 Kgs
Max fuel: 1460 Kgs (1095 KGs in the wings)
VMax at 2100 mts 460 KM/h
VMax at 11300 mts: 660 Km/h
VMax at 15000 mts: 740 Km/h
Time to 10000 mts: 20' and 36"
Time to 15000 mts: 34' and 36"
Range at 75 % of power at 16000 mts: 2000 Kms
MaxAlt : 17600 mts

Clearly, it was a strictly very-high-altitude bird, taking a loooong time getting up (but very short take-off run, 260 mts at maxGTOW). Putting radars on the southern slopes of the Alps, probably there would have been enough warning time to make the plane intercept on the Northern Appennine the B-24s taking off from Puglia. Even though, I'm skeptical of calculated performances. Caproni was the more-experienced Italian firms in high-altitude record flights, but this was VERY different.
BTW, the Caproni-Taliedo technician were very reticent on the possible performances of the plane with burners on.
All data w/o burner on.
 

Justo Miranda

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Skybolt said:
I'm skeptical of calculated performances.

So do I.
I believe the Ca-183 bis fuel consumption data is unrealistic. In November 1941 the Caproni Campini N.1 flew from Taliedo to Guidonia at 130 mph and they had to refuel at Pisa.

As per some authors the average consumption rate of a thermojet is four times that of a conventional engine and increases with speed and altitude.
In my opinion it could have improved the performance given time and good engineering. But the problem of the resistance to the compressor blades could not have been solved in wartime with the available resources. The Russians had the same problem with the turbochargers of their high-altitude interceptors Sukhoi Su-3 in 1942 and finally had to use small thermojets in their MiG 13 (I-250) and Su-5 designs.
 

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red admiral

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Re: Ca- 183bis

For the CC.2 with Burners on, consumption was 25.5L/min for the burners and sfc for the piston engine 0.55lb/hp-hr at full power. Full power of 750hp = 412.5lb/hr. For the burners, they produced 700kgf giving an sfc of 1.70lb/lbf-hr. Combining the two gives an sfc of 1.97lb/lbf-hr, which isn't bad going for a reheated system.

With increased speed and altitude the system becomes more efficient. Campini wrote a nice big paper on the sbuject, analysing the subject in great detail. For high-altitude, high-speed flight the system is more efficient than a normal propellor. Some quick dirty calculations indicate that without the burners, the system made around 550kgf.

But the problem of the resistance to the compressor blades could not have been solved in wartime with the available resources.

What problem was this?
 

Skybolt

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Look at the scheme. In the Soviet design, there was a direct air flow through the compressor.
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I would like to understand if the Ca.183bis "high altitude fighter" was a real project or, as I suspect, was merely a fake project, never existed, frankly speaking an hoax diffused after the war, like the well known "jet fighters" Re.2007 and Re.2008.

Please correct me, if my assumptions are wrong.
 

Skybolt

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Re: Ca- 183bis

No, the project existed, there are technical reports, etc. Besides, it wasn't so much advanced to use as a post-war petition of merit on Caproni's part.. Simply, the Italian industry didn't have technology for exhaust-driven turbocompressors (metal alloys problems) for high-altitude fighters, so had to resort to motorjets, thermally and mechanically easier. The basic problem is that almost all documentation from the Ministero Aeronautica of 1943 has been lost (read destroyed) on or immediately after the armistice, so the request for proposals etc aren't available. The Ca-183bis was actually one of a series of high-altitude fighters studied by Caproni-Taliedo, Caproni-Vizzola, Reggiane, and who knows who else. This is the same problem we have for the various bifusoliera projects (G-58, SM-92, CA-380 Corsaro, Re-2005 bifusoliera, etc), for which no RFP exhist, the various non-strategic materials airplanes, and completely unknowns like the Alfa-1901.
Sometimes, digging in the company archives does emerge some piece of info, like the mid 1943 decision to order the SM-91 and the SM-92 in series production respectively as a night fighter and a zerstorer. Had not for this lucky findings, no-one would have imagined a fact like that.
Naturally, the company archives must be treated "cum grano salis". For example, there is a report regarding the Ca-380, dated August 1943, in which there is a reference to a series production of the Corsaro for UK to use in Far-East theater... The memo is a post-war fake, when Count Caproni was under severe de-fascistization pressure. Like all info regarding a jet-powered "Re-2007" that are post war (a lot post-war, mid-60s) fakes, not to speak of the even more hilarious 1948 Re-2008 with area-rule fuselage......
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Beautiful Ca 183bis artwork from Aeromagazin dated 4 May 2002:
 

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hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi,

here is a drawing for its engines in details.
 

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eliteZelota

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi!
Is this plane was being built before the 8 September 1943?
If yes, how much was the % of completion and why there's no photos like for the Re.2006?
 

hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Welcome aboard Elite,

and the Caproni Ca.183 was just a project.
 

blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi!
Perhaps we don't need ram air intake which located side of the front engine in the second drawing.
So we can't find ram air intake located side of the front engine in the third drawing plan view.

Sorry conbustion chamber is error, combustion chamber is correct.
 

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blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi!
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Ca.183bis
Auto translation...
"Unlike Dr. Hans von Ohain and Sir Frank Whittle, engineer Secondo Campini, believing that gas turbine studies would lead to the creation of an engine impractical and too futuristic, decided to design a system that would use the concepts tested by Ing. Luigi Stipa in aircraft Stipa-Caproni combining proven experience on the Campini-Caproni C.C. 2. This resulted in Ca. 183bis, a low-flying aircraft that exploited the traditional matching engine-propeller propulsion and in higher altitudes the substitution of a motogetto as that experienced on postal 2 in 1940. At high altitudes, the conventional engines with a compressor to compensate the air rarefaction, decrease their efficiency resulting in loss of power, so the extra boost due to a Jet engine would be extremely useful.
The project involved the use of two piston engines; the first installed in the nose, a Daimler-Benz DB 605 from 1 250 HP liquid-cooled, three-blade contra-rotating propellers was to operate two, while the second, a Fiat radial air cooled from 30 to 700 HP. , who had the sole task of operating the compressor Campini, was placed in a duct in the middle of the fuselage. Traps placed on the sides of the fuselage provided the necessary air mass cools the motor Fiat and to feed the afterburner. It is believed that the Campini was able to ensure the aircraft speed increased up to 96 km/h, allowing the Ca. 183bis to reach a maximum speed of about 740 km/h with a range of about 2000 km.
Armament consisted of four 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in the wings and positioned by a 30 mm MK 108 Cannon from the propeller, common configuration to the Messerschmitt Bf 109 G with whom he shared the engine installed on the muzzle.
The construction of the prototype began in Caproni Taliedo but never came to completion because of the stalemate following the industrial Armistice.
Currently the project data of this aircraft are still minimal."
 

blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

9 : Radiatore dell acqua(Radiator of the water)
3(meshed area, hard to see) : Refrigeratore dell aria di alimentazione(cooler of the air of power)
2 : Compressore centrifugo... a due stadi(Centrifugal compressor...to two stadiums?)
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi,
 

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blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Yes good side view drawing of Ca-183 bis!! This is what I want to say.Thanks a lot. :D
I can see only a single propeller. :eek: It's little strange to had contra rotating propeller for DB605 engine.
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

blackkite said:
Yes good side view drawing of Ca-183 bis!! This is what I want to say.Thanks a lot. :D
I can see only a single propeller. :eek: It's little strange to had contra rotating propeller for DB605 engine.

I hope you like it.

CA183-1.jpg
 

blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I can see two shapes for intercooler/radiator/combustion chamber air intake. They are one piece type and three piece type.
I vote to Vladimir-san's one piece type.
 

blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

pacopepe said:
blackkite said:
Yes good side view drawing of Ca-183 bis!! This is what I want to say.Thanks a lot. :D
I can see only a single propeller. :eek: It's little strange to had contra rotating propeller for DB605 engine.

I hope you like it.

CA183-1.jpg
Thanks a lot. More picture please.
As a result, Ca-183 bis had three stage mechanically drive supercharger with intercooler and jet booster. Wing span is long. She was really a high altitude fighter indeed.
The reason why to have contra rotating propeller was the counter measure for propeller torque which hard to treat by aerodynamical surface in high altitude thin air??
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

blackkite said:
Hi!
Perhaps we don't need ram air intake which located side of the front engine in the second drawing.
So we can't find ram air intake located side of the front engine in the third drawing plan view.

Sorry conbustion chamber is error, combustion chamber is correct.

The second drawing is an old one of mine and shows the intake as my source showed it, for whatever that may be worth.

But I respectfully disagree when you say that "we can't find ram air intake located side of the front engine in the third drawing". It is clearly there in profile, as indeed it must be on a Damler-Benz engine with a transverse supercharger drive. You can see it in the oblong rounded shape on the eye of the supercharger. I agree that the <i>external fairing</i> for the intake is not shown, either on the profile view or the plan view. But seeing as these are cutaway views of structure and equipment, perhaps the artist did not see fit to represent external sheet metal.
 

blackkite

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi! Thanks for discussion. And your drawing is challenging and beautiful.
Do you have any original drawing for Ca-183bis?
"Perhaps we don't need ram air intake which located side of the front engine" is hard to believe for me same as you.
But logically no doubt.
My opinion is .......
Air duct for front engine supercharger is from rear side of the aircraft as you can see.
I imagine that shoulder ram air intake must be large size because this intake supply the air to two engines.
DB605's own supercharger is only single stage. High altitude fighter needs multistage supercharger.

Almost same discussion is here.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,791.msg269328.html#msg269328
 

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eliteZelota

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Re: Ca- 183bis

hesham said:
Welcome aboard Elite,

and the Caproni Ca.183 was just a project.
Thanks a lot!
I was asking because in a lot of forums and websites there's written that work on the prototype begun and stopped at the armistice.
 

Blacklynx09

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Skybolt said:
This comes from the Caproni technical description brochure. BTW, this was the bis version, with the Campini-like engine. There was a Ca-183 with a traditional engine (inline) adapted to high altitude, but no drawing, for now. Look at it as a competitor in the informal contest for a high altitude interceptor in 1942-1943. If interested, I have truckloads of technical data. Enjoy

Hello Skybolt, I am highly interested in the Ca.183bis and would like to know if you would be willing to share your 'truckloads of technical data'.
 

blockhaj

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Me too that info would be really interesting and also useful for some of my future projects.
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Blacklynx09 said:
Skybolt said:
This comes from the Caproni technical description brochure. BTW, this was the bis version, with the Campini-like engine. There was a Ca-183 with a traditional engine (inline) adapted to high altitude, but no drawing, for now. Look at it as a competitor in the informal contest for a high altitude interceptor in 1942-1943. If interested, I have truckloads of technical data. Enjoy

Hello Skybolt, I am highly interested in the Ca.183bis and would like to know if you would be willing to share your 'truckloads of technical data'.

Here is some technical data;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caproni_Campini_Ca.183bis
 

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I appreciate it, however, I have already studied essentially all readily found online sources on the Ca.184bis, including the Wikipedia article.
 

hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Hi Blacklynx,

what more data you need ?,I will search in Italian books and magazines,maybe I will find something,please see this;

https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/288230-ca183bis-italian-hybrid-motorjet-interceptor/
 

Blacklynx09

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I actually created that forum post myself. Despite being what it is, it can be viewed as a compilation of all that I know of this aircraft and all the most important sources I've found.
 

hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Blacklynx09 said:
I actually created that forum post myself. XD

As I promised you Blacklynx,

I will search on a more Info about it,but that needs time.
 

Blacklynx09

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I greatly appreciate it and will be looking forward to any information.
 

Blacklynx09

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Re: Ca- 183bis

What I am most interested in is what skybolt refers to as the 'Caproni Technical Descriptions Brochure'.
 

hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

A more Info about Ca.183.
 

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Blacklynx09

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Re: Ca- 183bis

I thank you for your work Hesham.
 

hesham

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Re: Ca- 183bis

Blacklynx09 said:
I thank you for your work Hesham.

At your service Sir,and if I find anything more I will send it.
 

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