Business jet A/C types morphed into combat aircraft?

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The fellow member posted this in another thread:

SteveO said:
I like the idea of an armed business jet type aircraft. It would have the efficiency and long range of a commercial aircraft with the combat punch of a couple of fast jets.
Give it off the shelf equipment and hang the latest weapons on it.
High risk load out = 4x Storm Shadow + self defence dual role missiles (air-air and anti-air defence)
Low risk load out = 8x Paveway IV + 6x Brimstone
Could always fit an external gun turret for gunship, air policing and anti-piracy roles too.
Crew rest area in the back is nice!
Click to expand...

I like the idea, and believe it warrants a good look, and I'm mostly interested in 21st century developments of it. Very budget-friendly, a lot of volume for electronics despite the modest size, fuel, extended crew, less conspicuous, should be able to loft a good deal of long-range missiles...
Any takers?
 
Well, the Iraqis. Or so it seemed. They were hungry for Exocets platforms, but Mirage F1EQ-5 / 6 were late in the game. So they got Super Frelons choppers, then 5* Super Etendards, then this contraption. It worked quite well, but of course against even a F-5E it would have been toast.
 
Yay! I got a reply to a post from 11 years ago :D

Still stand by what I said. In this day and age every platform should be capable of being armed or delivering fuel. Whether it’s a tanker/transport launching long range missiles or a turboprop trainer ferrying weapons in an emergency, it could make the difference when it all kicks off.

The Textron Scorpion leveraged Cessna biz-jet systems and off the shelf kit. It made a lot of sense but probably looked too much like a fighter for airforces trying to maintain their high end fast jet numbers.

A Gulfstream or Global Express AEW, maritime patrol or ground surveillance platform should all have hard points for at least 4 cruise missiles or fuel hose and tanks in my opinion.
 
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Bizjets aren't designed to the stress levels of combat aircraft. The also don't have the structure for hardpoints, etc.

That having been said, the B737 has been morphed into the P-8 Poseidon, though arguably it's a very different airframe internally.
 
wjkuleck said:
Bizjets aren't designed to the stress levels of combat aircraft. The also don't have the structure for hardpoints, etc.

That having been said, the B737 has been morphed into the P-8 Poseidon, though arguably it's a very different airframe internally.
Click to expand...

Business jets also tend to be highly optimized for cruise in a clean condition. Hanging large external loads (even suitably reinforced) seems like it would have a really big impact on range.
 
SteveO said:
The Textron Scorpion leveraged Cessna biz-jet systems and off the shelf kit.
Click to expand...

I was about to mention the Scorpion! According to Textron 70% of the Scorpion’s parts were sourced from Cessna bizjets (mostly various Citation models).

Makes you wonder if Dassault could take a Falcon 2000, engines, wings, landing gear, systems and all, and just switch out the fuselage for something more military (maybe with a payload/bomb bay)…
 
wjkuleck said:
Bizjets aren't designed to the stress levels of combat aircraft. The also don't have the structure for hardpoints, etc.

That having been said, the B737 has been morphed into the P-8 Poseidon, though arguably it's a very different airframe internally.
Click to expand...
Steep turns are less important when you have modern air-to-air missiles that can turn at more than 40 Gs.
 
Back in 1979, my first job in the RCAF was parking and starting Canadian CT-133 Silver Stars. Their primary role was simulating Exocet missiles to exercise Royal Canadian Navy AAA gunners.
When CT-133s retired, they were replaced by Lear Jets flying similar attack profiles. A dozen civilian contractors fly various bizjets on similar missions. They often add extra avionics to simulate high-flying bombers penetrating Canadian air space. A few Lear Jets (e.g. West Germany) have even been modified to towed the sleeves shot at by air-to-air gunners.

As an aside, the West German Air Force also modified a few Hansa Jets for electronic warfare duties.

At the large end of the scale, the USAF, CIA, etc. used Boeing 707/KC-135 Rivet Joint electronic warfare planes to test North Korean response times when penetrated by foreign airplanes. North Korea shot down a Boeing 747 airliner after mistaking it for a KC-135 spy plane.

The US Coast Guard flies Falcon jets on long-range search and rescue missions. Falcon's primcipal advantage is its fast cruise speed to reach survivors in mid-ocean hours earlier than C-130s or helicopters. After locating survivors, then drop survival equipment like life rafts. Falcons carry extra sensors (e.g. FLIR) to help locate survivors and extra radios to cover the full spectrum of civilian rescue radios. Unfortunately, they don't have external hard-points capable of dropping SCAD, so they had to cut a hole in the floor of the cabin pressure vessel and hand-drop life rafts, etc. to survivors.

As a side-job, the USCG, DEA and the other alphabet groups like bizjets (e.g. Cessna Citation) to intercept the bizjets flown by drug smugglers.

Apparently the French military experimented with parachuting human rescue specialists from the front cabin door of a Falcon, but abandoned the program after denting the wing leading edge.
Hah!
Hah!
It would make more sense to drop life rafts, etc. from the un-pressurized baggage compartment in the aft fuselage. Perahps Raisbeck would like the project.
Hint!
Hint!
 
TomS said:
wjkuleck said:
Bizjets aren't designed to the stress levels of combat aircraft. The also don't have the structure for hardpoints, etc.

That having been said, the B737 has been morphed into the P-8 Poseidon, though arguably it's a very different airframe internally.
Click to expand...

Business jets also tend to be highly optimized for cruise in a clean condition. Hanging large external loads (even suitably reinforced) seems like it would have a really big impact on range.
Click to expand...
True, but when the mission needs unarmed endurance you leave the stores pylons off. It’s all about having options.
 
1-What blew my mind is
- North American bizjet - Sabreliner - had some F-86 DNA strands
- Learjet bizjet has a bit of FFA P-16 in it
- Dassault Falcon 20 was initially called the Mystere 20, and had a wing derived from the Mystere IV (at least loosely)
So three early bizjets derived from three transonic fighters.

2-Bizjets can only do military missions also done by airliners, because they ARE miniature airliners (duh)
- AEW
- SIGINT / ELINT : electronic reconnaissance
- ASW
- training (for bombers)
- VIP / fast cargo transport / CASEVAC

3-During the Falklands campaign Argentina pressed some Learjets into dangerous reconnaissance flights... until one of them ate a Sea Dart at extreme range and was shot from the sky.
Dassault also had that modified Falcon for the Iraqis, but it is quite significative they never pushed more Falcons into military service beyond the missions I listed above.
 
Possible users of the suggested A/C, where their long range and good payload is needed, and where the potential air threat is limited:
-Norway (for use above Atlantic), Sweden, Finland (maritime combat and surveillance), Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Germany, Netherlands, Romania
- most of the South American countries
- most of the big Asian countries
- USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico
- Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, South Africa
 
riggerrob said:
At the large end of the scale, the USAF, CIA, etc. used Boeing 707/KC-135 Rivet Joint electronic warfare planes to test North Korean response times when penetrated by foreign airplanes. North Korea shot down a Boeing 747 airliner after mistaking it for a KC-135 spy plane.
Click to expand...
It wasn’t the Norks, the Soviets shot down the Korean Air 747.
 
An armed Bizjet is a plainclothes cop sitting on a park bench looking like a bag-lady…daring an assailant to do something.

Carry internally…a Phoenix in a VLJ :)

Fly the meanest looking drone you have covered in plastic antennas and painted cardboard carpet-tubes with fins…as a distraction.

—and the Bizjet does a drive by and pulls a fade with the other air traffic.

It works for the Crips and Bloods.
 
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A modified business jet based interceptor armed with modern medium-range AAM's and slaved to a data link aboard a Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C, one could derive a cost effective interceptor.......

Regards
Pioneer
 
Pioneer said:
A modified business jet based interceptor armed with modern medium-range AAM's and slaved to a data link aboard a Saab 2000 Erieye AEW&C, one could derive a cost effective interceptor.......

Regards
Pioneer
Click to expand...
Combine a E-7 and a P-8 and add weapons as necessary...
 
IAI 1121 Jet Commander (4X-COA, 71) used as testbed for MiG-21-2000 radar.
 

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IAI-1124N Seascan :)
 

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I suppose they make radio contact, show the DEA roundels or markings - and then if the drug dealers try to escape - they ask the "cavalry" for help - F-16s, F-15s, whatever.
 
U-36A
Utility transport, training version of the Learjet 35A. Equipped with a missile seeker simulator in addition to a radar, avionics, firing training assessment devices, an ejector pylon, a special communications system, a target towing system and a jammer system. Six were built for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force.
 

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Not really used as a combat aircraft, but Cobham's Falcon 20s played the role of Red Air against RAF Typhoons in BVR combat training.

"... Cranking hard we 'trash' a couple of long-range missile shots, while RAMPAGE flight attempt to 'grind' and reposition for follow-up shots. With the combat taking place at 25 miles or further ahead of us, from the cramped interior of VADER 61 there is little to see apart from occasional contrails up above and the changing horizon as the jet twists and turns. In the back of the Falcon, at her console, VADER 61s EWO (electronic warfare officer) sets up jammers, ‘spikes’ our targets and calls when we are being targeted - building up the fast-changing picture of how the fight is progressing.

...

... aggressive flying by the pilots, along with chaff and EW means that the Falcon can still hold its own at BVR ranges. In addition, the simulated missile ranges are tweaked to account for the Falcon’s slower speed when entering the merge compared to a supersonic fighter. This, says Cobham, provides a highly cost effective threat simulator, giving 80% of capability of a fast jet at just a fraction of the cost. "

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/flying-for-the-dark-side/

flying-for-the-dark-side-feature-web.jpg

BTW, minizap made by Andrew Pavacic shows that a Mach 1.2 fighter at 20,000 feet should close to within about 10.5 NM to hit a co-altitude Mach 0.8 bizjet running away with an AIM-120B (30 deg loft).

minizap2.PNG
 
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BAE Systems T-39A. It seems to have a radar and a strange missile. Does anyone know what it is ?
 

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