Brazil's ProSub program making progress?

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.france24.com/en/20130301-brazil-get-its-first-nuclear-subs-0

Rousseff stressed Brazil was committed to peace but also needed its defense deterrent, as she inaugurated a naval shipyard in Rio de Janeiro state where the country's first nuclear-powered sub is set to be built in partnership with France.

"We can say that with these installations we are entering the select club of countries with nuclear submarines: The United States, Russia, France, Britain and China," said Rousseff.

Known as the Metallic Structures Construction Unit, the factory in the city of Itaguai near Rio de Janeiro is part of the ambitious ProSub program launched in 2008.

Under the scheme, France will supply Brazil with four conventional submarines and help develop the non-nuclear components of the South American powerhouse's first nuclear-powered attack submarine.

Brazil already has the uranium enrichment technology required for producing nuclear fuel and wants to use it to power the submarine.

The 7.8 billion reais ($3.95 billion) ProSub program aims to protect the country's 8,500-kilometer (5,280-mile) coastline and huge deep-water oil reserves.

The defense ministry said the first of the four conventional Scorpene-class subs will be delivered to the Brazilian Navy in 2017, while the nuclear-powered vessel will be commissioned in 2023.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The level of Brazilian technology inserts and development work, as opposed to license construction and technology transfer, was not announced when the deal was signed, as it needed to be fleshed out during the design phase. Mercopress reports in 2010 suggest that the Brazilian submarines will be about 5m longer compared to other Scorpenes, with another 100 tonnes displacement. The Scorpene’s AIP section adds 8.3m and 305 tonnes, so if Mercopress is correct, the added size is not related to any decision re: AIP.

Expected Scorpene costs are currently EUR 415 million (currently about $592 million) per boat, and the level of customization required will determine the project’s overall risk profile. This is similar to India’s budget of about $3.5 billion for an even mix of 3 CM-2000 and 3 AM-2000 Scorpene submarines, or $583 million or so per boat. The 1st diesel-electric sub will begin construction in 2011, with an expected in-service date of 2015; submarines #2-4 will enter service in 2017, 2019, and 2021.

According to Brazil’s MDD, the nuclear-powered submarine will be far larger, at 6,000t compared to the diesel-electric boats’ 1,400-1,800 tonnes. This is significantly larger than France’s existing SSN Rubis Amethyste class fast attack boats, which weigh in at around 2,730t submerged, and remains larger than France’s planned 5,300t SSN Barracuda class. Some of this can be accounted for by the need for more space, in order to accommodate larger early-stage nuclear propulsion systems. Even so, the famous USS Nautilus managed to displace only 3,500 tons. The most similar size analogues to Brazil’s proposed submarine is the India’s new Arihant class SSBN, which would raise questions concerning Brazil’s long-term nuclear intentions. Since nuclear weapons are specifically prohibited by Brazil’s current constitution, however, a large SSN fast attack vessel is almost certainly the goal. A 6,000t vessel would fit somewhere between France’s new SSN Barracuda class, and the USA’s 6,450t SSN Los Angeles class.

Construction of Brazil’s nuclear boat is expected to begin in 2015, and it’s expected to enter service in 2021. Cost for the submarine is pegged at about EUR 2 billion, with EUR 1.25 billion assigned to Brazil’s indigenous Project Aramar nuclear propulsion/ power program. DCNS’ role involves assistance with hull technology and construction, and with non-nuclear internal technologies.

Finally, Brazil aims to set up improved naval construction facilities and a base capable of handling nuclear submarines at Itaguai, a port just south of Rio. Brazil’s U209 submarines are currently based out of Rio de Janeiro, but that densely populated city offers too many technical and environmental issues to host nuclear-powered submarines. These construction projects are expected to cost EUR 1.868 billion (6.9 billion Reals). The nuclear submarine base will be built by the Sociedade de Proposito Especifico, or SPE consortium, which includes Brazil’s Odebrecht (50%), France’s DCNS (49%) and the Brazilian Navy (1% “golden share,” with veto power).

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Brazil-France-in-Deal-for-SSKs-SSN-05217/​

 

[Grey Havoc]

http://www.odebrechtonline.com.br/edicaoonline/en/2011/07/26/um-sonho-vem-a-tona/

 

[Grey Havoc]

Via Offiziere.ch:

Brazil reveals submarine design details at LAAD 2013. The PWR reactor design for the Brazilian Navy’s future nuclear-powered submarine (SN-Br) has been completed with assistance from France. A model of the design, known as the 2131-R, and an actual-size combustion element were on display at the navy’s stand at the LAAD exhibition in Rio de Janeiro. The navy had two separate designs of the SN-Br on display at the stand. A model from the navy’s technology centre in Sao Paulo showed a submarine divided into seven blocks with the PWR reactor positioned amidships eight torpedoes situated at the front of the boat. Navy literature showed a second design with just two torpedo tubes but including six vertical launch missile tubes in the front section of the boat. This version is to displace 4,000t and have a length of 100m and diameter of 9.8m.​

 

[Grey Havoc]

I knew we had a topic on this!

http://www.defencetalk.com/brazil-to-pursue-satellite-nuclear-submarine-projects-minister-68611/

Ambitious projects such as satellites that could bring the internet to the remote Amazon and construction of Brazil’s first nuclear submarine will proceed despite a deep economic downturn, the defense minister told AFP.

Raul Jungmann said he will be in France this Thursday to take delivery of the first of three communications and defense satellites built by France’s Thales and due for launching on March 21 next year.

The nearly six tonne, 2.1 billion reais ($617 million) satellite is at the core of a modernization of Brazil’s military that Jungmann said will still take hits during planned government austerity cuts.

“We know there’s going to be a new fiscal policy with a spending ceiling. We know we’ll have to cut back,” he said in an interview in Brasilia.

However, some projects “are already at an advanced stage and cannot be stopped, like the nuclear submarine or the four conventional submarines that are also being developed in France,” he said. “Three of them are already being built.”

[snip]

 

[Grey Havoc]

Via HP&CA: http://en.meretmarine.com/update-brazils-submarine-programme/171968

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2018/12/17/frances-naval-group-eyes-brazil-as-hub-for-its-regional-submarine-business/

 

[WatcherZero]

Announced this week France will help Brazil with nuclear propulsion. France has been assisting with both civil nuclear and the Brazilian submarine program for nearly 20 years but for the first time theyve said they will help with nuclear propulsion technology as well, this is possibly as Brazil has hit a road block in its indigenous reactor program. Brazil of course unlike Australia did have a nuclear weapons program from the 70's through to 1985 with the nuclear facilities being put beyond use in 1990.

https://www.france24.com/en/america...zil-develop-nuclear-technology-for-submarines

 

[Grey Havoc]

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...m-advances-with-new-contract-for-naval-group/

 

[gral_rj]

Speaking of the French, there is some question of the speed and bandwidth of French designed SSN production/technology transfer, given that the Brazilian program started in 2008 and isn't expected to deliver until 2037.

French assistance for the Brazilian SSN explicitly does not cover the reactor part; every now and then the French dangle the possibility of expanding it to the reactor and fitting it in the hull aspects in order to get Brazil to buy more French military hardware, but Brazil hasn't bit yet.

 

[BonPlan2]

French assistance for the Brazilian SSN explicitly does not cover the reactor part; every now and then the French dangle the possibility of expanding it to the reactor and fitting it in the hull aspects in order to get Brazil to buy more French military hardware, but Brazil hasn't bit yet.

I don't think it was, it is, the plan.
At the time this contract was inked, it was intelectually impossible to sell such a nuc reactor, for military purpose.
And I think Brazil is proud enough to end the job, even late.

 

[BROF]

French assistance for the Brazilian SSN explicitly does not cover the reactor part; every now and then the French dangle the possibility of expanding it to the reactor and fitting it in the hull aspects in order to get Brazil to buy more French military hardware, but Brazil hasn't bit yet.

Completely wrong. Nuclear propulsion is completely excluded by law.

 

[BROF]

There is apparently a good amount of non-obvious details in US reactor design. Some of them can be found quickly, they were identified in the late 1950s (and are why the US flipped on the idea of selling Skipjacks). Others get into the design of life-of-ship reactors and how to burn up your neutron poisons while carrying a very high load of fissionables.



1) most naval nuclear propulsion requires HEU. Weapons grade HEU, 95+% U235. Good luck getting approval to enrich that high in Oz. Also, once you are enriching that high, you know someone is going to seriously look at making nuclear weapons.

2) Even the French reactors require enrichment to about 20%, and also force a refueling refit every 8-10 years. Yes, the French subs have an easy access designed in so you're not doing hull cuts, but you're still talking about a ship out of service for a full deployment cycle every decade.

Wrong. French naval propulsion reactors use commercial enrichement-level oxyde fuel. American (and consequently English copies thereof) use HEU metal fuel, which makes transfer to a non-NW state, even a client-state, a serious non-proliferation issue.

 

[BROF]

The main enrichers are URENCO and the Russians, so the options there are somewhat limited. It doesn't seem strategically wise to be reliant on Russian uranium for your SSN.

I think that Australia developing a nuclear industry wouldn't be insane, given that like 1/3 of Uranium reserves are Australian, but it seems somewhat absurd to argue that building out this industry would be less expensive than AUKUS. And if nothing else there's no real reason that AUKUS precludes the much more expensive project of building a civilian nuclear industry. Hell, Aus could probably make money as a LEU/HEU exporter given how much of a mess enrichment re-scaling has been in Europe and the US after we shut down capacity post-cold war.

That said, it seems like it would be more sensible to just license the Rolls Royce SMR or one of the French or South Korean power plant reactor designs, versus trying to reinvent the wheel.

Speaking of the French, there is some question of the speed and bandwidth of French designed SSN production/technology transfer, given that the Brazilian program started in 2008 and isn't expected to deliver until 2037.

IDK I know it's fashionable in AUS to shit on AUKUS, but it doesn't seem like there's a realistic way to get more capability sooner for less money.

ORANO is the second world largest enrichement company, and the only company outside Russia operating a closed nuclear fuel cycle, but you have never heared of it. Suffen SNA have never been, are not being and will never been offered to Australia. The France-Brazil 2007 agreement specificaly excludes nuclear propulsion from its scope and exporting military nuclear propulsion is prohibited by law and EURATOM regulations.

 

[BonPlan2]

Wrong. French naval propulsion reactors use commercial enrichement-level oxyde fuel. American (and consequently English copies thereof) use HEU metal fuel, which makes transfer to a non-NW state, even a client-state, a serious non-proliferation issue.

in the french nuc sub LEU 4 to 6% is used.

 

[Scott Kenny]

AUKUS nearly killed NPT....

And the invasion of Ukraine in 2022 did kill it, imo. Ignoring when exactly Best Korea got their nukes working.

 

[Titus K]

French assistance for the Brazilian SSN explicitly does not cover the reactor part; every now and then the French dangle the possibility of expanding it to the reactor and fitting it in the hull aspects in order to get Brazil to buy more French military hardware, but Brazil hasn't bit yet.

it's quite the opposite, the brazilian side was asking for more help..
https://actu.fr/normandie/cherbourg...vec-naval-group-prend-du-retard_64520365.html

Naval Group does not intervene on the nuclear part of the submarine​

Because, if Naval Group - including a Cherbourg cell - provides technical assistance to Rio on this project, it does not concern the nuclear reactor, "in accordance with France's commitment and in compliance with international legislation".

In 2024, during Emmanuel Macron's visit, President Lula did not hesitate to ask France for help, trying to convince Paris to increase its technology transfers to help it "integrate the reactor into the submarine and sell it equipment related to nuclear propulsion (turbine, generator)".

At the time, the French head of state had responded with a "yes but" which ultimately did not really arrange Rio. Hence the four additional years announced by the Brazilian Navy for its confection, which will take place, as for its "little brothers" Scorpène, on the Itaguaí shipyard of which Naval Group is a 41% shareholder.

 

[gral_rj]

it's quite the opposite, the brazilian side was asking for more help..
https://actu.fr/normandie/cherbourg...vec-naval-group-prend-du-retard_64520365.html

Both things are true. Brazil has had trouble with the reactor part(AFAIK, more specifically, the mounting of the reactor - rafting for reduced acoustic signature and similar things), and Brazil has asked for cooperation in early 2024.

This was not solely done on Brazilian initiative - there had been ongoing meetings between both countries on those specific matters prior to the official request(Brazil in 2024 asked for: nuclear fuel; marine steam turbines for the propulsion section; electric generators; reactor integration is frequently mentioned but not confirmed - I believe it, though). My opinion is it was more on the Brazilian government part than on the French one.

However... in 2019 with the Tamandaré class design selection, and with the possible off-the-shelf AMX replacement in late 2024, the cooperation got mentioned as being part of the package offered by the French. Much of it is online fanboys and click-chasers jumping the gun. I don't think there has been an official proposal on the part of the French. But a preliminary, unofficial one? What I've seen point me to it being put on the table - there wouldn't have been official meetings between both Foreign Relations ministries otherwise.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Both things are true. Brazil has had trouble with the reactor part(AFAIK, more specifically, the mounting of the reactor - rafting for reduced acoustic signature and similar things), and Brazil has asked for cooperation in early 2024.

I'd be shocked if the French sold their rafting technology, silencing is one of the most tightly held secrets in subs.

 

[gral_rj]

I'd be shocked if the French sold their rafting technology, silencing is one of the most tightly held secrets in subs.

Agreed; it wouldn't stop the Brazilian government from asking for it, though.