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Boeing P-8A Poseidon (737-800ERX) MMA (Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft)

mrmalaya

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Why is there any reason to think that the UK was going to buy anything other than P8?

The RAF has had crews training, deployed and winning competitions in them for the best part of 5years.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80308
 

Flyaway

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Grey Havoc said:
Triton said:
The Sunday Mail gets it wrong:

"UK to obtain nine P-8 maritime patrol aircraft"
23 November, 2015 BY: Greg Waldron Singapore

Source:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-to-obtain-nine-p-8-maritime-patrol-aircraft-419371/
Unfortunately, Cameron & Co. seem to be up to their usual fun and games; He's promised that nine P-8s will be ordered by the end of the decade. Given his past record, I fear we are looking at vapourware here, to put it politely.
As far as I am aware he said they would begin to be become operational before the end of this parliament.
 

marauder2048

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mrmalaya said:
Why is there any reason to think that the UK was going to buy anything other than P8?

The RAF has had crews training, deployed and winning competitions in them for the best part of 5years.

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=80308
I think P8 was long seen as the favo(u)red option but the SC-130J and the P1 were credible altenatives which (along with the other offerors) led to a push from some quarters for a formal tender/competition.
The decision to retain C-130Js in their present role probably nixed the SC-130J option and the immaturity and unknown O&S costs for the P1 probably nixed it.

The remaining platforms are fine for protecting fisheries from marauding trawlers but not well suited for protecting your carriers and seaborne strategic deterrent.
 

TomS

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Soem USN P-8 news that we seem to have missed:

http://www.janes.com/article/53639/us-navy-to-activate-additional-p-8-workstation-for-high-tempo-asw-and-asuw-missions

It seems they're adding a sixth operator console to the Poseidon to handle the workload. A good reason for a larger airframe -- you've got growth potential like this without major effort.
 

marauder2048

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TomS said:
Soem USN P-8 news that we seem to have missed:

A good reason for a larger airframe -- you've got growth potential like this without major effort.
You had me at wet galley and full sized lavatory :)
 

Grey Havoc

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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-singapore-southchinasea-idUSKBN0TQ2K720151208
 

Flyaway

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Grey Havoc said:
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-singapore-southchinasea-idUSKBN0TQ2K720151208
Spy Plane?
 

xmotex

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Flyaway said:
Spy Plane?
I read that article today and that annoyed me too.
Much like articles that refer to any given warship as a "battleship" - it never ceases to amaze me how ill-informed modern journalists tend to be about the subjects they report on.
 

Grey Havoc

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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-secures-deal-for-20-us-and-australian-p-8-pos-421406/
 

Grey Havoc

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http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/11/pentagon-looking-at-iceland-hub-for-its-spy-planes/
 

Flyaway

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UK's Boeing P-8 purchase gets US tick of approval

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uks-boeing-p-8-purchase-gets-us-tick-of-approval-423543/
 

fightingirish

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Australia's 1st P-8A Poseidon MPA completes maiden flight.

Video, picture and article:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4015
 

Flyaway

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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-uk-firms-up-two-big-military-buys-427216/
 

marauder2048

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Norway plans $1.15 billion order for five Boeing Poseidon military aircraft


Norway plans to order five Boeing Co P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol planes to maintain its
surveillance capacity and meet future security challenges, the NATO country's Defence Ministry said.

Following an agreement in Norway's parliament to boost long-term military spending, the 9.83
billion Norwegian crowns ($1.15 billion) purchase will likely face only minor political opposition.

Norway's long maritime border with neighboring Russia has become a renewed focus for the
country's military planners following the Russian annexation of Ukraine's Crimea region. Norway's
territorial waters also stretch far into the Arctic.

Neighboring Sweden and Finland, which are not in the NATO alliance, have also expressed
concerns about incursions by Russian submarines and other naval vessels.

"The new security situation increases our demand for situational awareness in our own vicinity.
The ability to handle current and future challenges must therefore be strengthened,"
Defence Minister Ine Eriksen Soereide said.

"The introduction of the Poseidon aircraft is crucial for Norway to maintain a leading position and
expertise on strategic conditions in northern areas," she said in the statement released late on
Friday. The statement did not specifically mention Russia.

The submarine-hunting patrol planes will replace Norway's current fleet of six P-3 Orion and three
DA-20 Jet Falcon aircraft and are expected to be delivered in 2021 and 2022. Norway will also buy
related intelligence equipment, the ministry said.

(Reporting by Joachim Dagenborg; Editing by Terje Solsvik and Alison Williams)

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-boeing-idUSKBN13N0LN
 

hark40

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The RAAF's first P-8A has arrived in Australia. Media release at http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/2016/11/16/minister-for-defence-and-minister-for-defence-industry-australias-first-p-8-poseidon-touches-down/.

Imagery for the ceremony at Canberra is available at http://images.defence.gov.au/S20162831.

Two weeks later four different maritime aircraft flown by RAAF 11 Squadron over the last 76 years flew in formation around Adelaide. This included the P-8A, the AP-3C Orion as well as a Neptune and a Catalina. Imagery at https://images.defence.gov.au/S20163085
 

marauder2048

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Norway's Formal FMS case


WASHINGTON, Dec. 21, 2016 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Norway for P-8A Aircraft and associated support. The estimated cost is $1.75 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on December 20, 2016.

The Government of Norway has requested a possible sale of up to five (5) P-8A Patrol Aircraft, each includes: Commercial Engines, Tactical Open Mission Software (TOMS), Electro-Optical (EO) and Infrared (IO) MX-20HD, AN/AAQ-2(V)1 Acoustic System, AN/APY-10 Radar, ALQ-240 Electronic Support Measures. Also included are eleven (11) Multifunctional Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio Systems (MIDS JTRS); eight (8) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assemblies (GLTA) for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; eight (8) System Processors for AN/AAQ-24(V)N; forty-two (42) AN/AAR- 54 Missile Warning Sensors for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; fourteen (14) LN-251 with Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS)/Inertial Navigation Systems (EGIs); and two thousand (2,000) AN/SSQ-125 Multi-Static Active Coherent (MAC) Source Sonobouys; spares; spare engine; support equipment; operational support systems; training; maintenance trainer/classrooms; publications; software; engineering and logistics technical assistance; Foreign Liaison Officer support; contractor engineering technical services; repair and return; transportation; aircraft ferry; and other associated training and support. The total estimated program cost is $1.75 billion.

This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability throughout the world. The proposed sale will allow Norway to maintain its Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) capability following retirement of its P-3C MPA. This sale will strengthen collective NATO defense and enhance Norway’s regional and global allied contributions.

Norway has procured and operated U.S. produced P-3 Orion MPAs for over 40 years, providing critical capabilities to NATO and coalition maritime operations. Norway has maintained a close MPA acquisition and sustainment relationship with the U.S. Navy over this period. The proposed sale will allow Norway to recapitalize, modernize, and sustain its MPA capability for the next 30 years. As a long-time P-3 operator, Norway will have no difficulty transitioning its MPA force to the P-8A and absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor involved in this sale is The Boeing Company, Seattle, WA. Additional contractors include: Air Cruisers Co, LLC; Arnprior Aerospace, Canada; AVOX Zodiac Aerospace; BAE; Canadian Commercial Corporation (CCC)/EMS; Compass David Clark; DLS/ViaSat, Carlsbad, CA; DRS; Exelis, McLean, VA; GC Micro, Petaluma, CA; General Electric, UK; Harris; Joint Electronics; Martin Baker; Northrop Grumman Corp, Falls Church, VA; Pole Zero, Cincinnati, OH; Raytheon, Waltham, MA; Raytheon, UK; Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, IA; Spirit Aero, Wichita, KS; Symmetries Telephonies, Farmingdale, NY; Terma, Arlington, VA; Viking; and WESCAM. Norway does require an offset agreement. Any offset agreement will be defined in negotiations between the purchaser and the prime contractor.

Implementation of the proposed sale will require approximately five (5) contractor personnel to support the program in Norway.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.
 

Grey Havoc

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https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-poised-to-retire-iconic-tu-142-fleet-435048/
 

Grey Havoc

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Grey Havoc said:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-navy-on-track-for-high-altitude-p-8a-weapon-435653/
 

marauder2048

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New Zealand – P-8A Aircraft and Associated Support

Media/Public Contact:
pm-cpa@state.gov
Transmittal No:
17-13
WASHINGTON, Apr. 28, 2017 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to New Zealand for P-8A aircraft and associated support. The estimated cost is $1.46 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on April 27, 2017.

New Zealand has requested the potential sale of up to four (4) P-8A Patrol Aircraft. Each includes: commercial engines, Tactical Open Mission Software (TOMS), Electro-Optical (EO) and Infrared (IR) MX-20HD, AN/AAQ-2(V)1 Acoustic System, AN/APY-10 Radar, ALQ-240 Electronic Support Measures. Also included are eight (8) Multifunctional Information Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS JTRS); five (5) Guardian Laser Transmitter Assemblies (GLTA) for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; five (5) System Processors for AN/AAQ-24(V)N; thirty (30) AN/AAR-54 Missile Warning Sensors for the AN/AAQ-24(V)N; ten (10) LN-251 with Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS)/Inertial Navigations Systems (EGIs); support equipment; operation support systems; maintenance trainer/classrooms; publications; software, engineering, and logistics technical assistance; foreign Liaison officer support, contractor engineering technical services; repair and return; transportation; aircraft ferry; and other associated training, support equipment and services. The total estimated cost is $1.46 billion.

This proposed sale will enhance the foreign policy and national security of the United States by strengthening the security of a Major Non-NATO ally which has been, and continues to be, an important force for political stability within the region. New Zealand is a close ally in the region and an important partner on critical foreign policy and defense issues.

The Government of New Zealand intends to use these defense articles and services to continue its Maritime Surveillance Aircraft (MSA) capability, following retirement of its P-3K maritime patrol aircraft.

The sale will strengthen collective defense and enhance New Zealand’s regional and global allied contributions.

New Zealand has procured and operated U.S. produced P-3 MSA for over 40 years, providing critical capabilities to NATO and coalition maritime operations. New Zealand has maintained a close MSA acquisition and sustainment relationship with the U.S. Navy over this period. The proposed sale will allow New Zealand to recapitalize, modernize and sustain its MSA capability for the next 30 years. As a long-time P-3 operator, New Zealand will have no difficulty transitioning its MSA force to the P-8A and absorbing these aircraft into its armed forces.

The proposed sale of this equipment and support does not alter the basic military balance in the region.

The prime contractor will be The Boeing Company, Seattle, WA. Additional contractors include:
Air Cruisers Co LLC
Arnprior Aerospace, Canada
AVOX Zodiac Aerospace
BAE
Canadian Commercial Corporation (CCC)/EMS
Compass David Clark
DLS/NiaSat, Carlsbad, CA
DRS
Exelis, McLean VA
GC Micro, Petaluma, CA
General Electric, UK
Harris
Joint Electronics
Marin Baker
Northrop Grumman Corp, Falls Church, VA
Pole Zero, Cincinnati, OH
Raytheon, Waltham, MA
Raytheon, UK
Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, IA
Spirit Aero, Wichita, KS
Symmetries Telephonics, Farmingdale, NY
Terma, Arlington, VA
Viking
WESCAM

There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale.

Implementation of this proposed sale will require approximately five (5) contractor representatives to support the program in New Zealand.

There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale.

This notice of a potential sale is required by law and does not mean the sale has been concluded.

All questions regarding this proposed Foreign Military Sale should be directed to the State Department's Bureau of Political Military Affairs, Office of Congressional and Public Affairs, pm-cpa@state.gov.

-30-
 

Triton

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"NAVAIR Flight Ready: P-8A Poseidon: Guardian of the Seas"

NAVAIRSYSCOM

Published on Jan 16, 2018

The P-8A Poseidon takes to the skies. A look at its technology, and the many missions it'll handle for the Navy in the future.

https://youtu.be/lB1GsI9Fq4M
 

Flyaway

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​Wellington confirms deal for four P-8A Poseidons

New Zealand’s defence ministry has approved an order for four Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/wellington-confirms-deal-for-four-p-8a-poseidons-450023/
 

Grey Havoc

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The P-8 program is likely to be directly impacted by the revelation regarding 737 wing problems. Not good.
 

TomS

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The P-8 program is likely to be directly impacted by the revelation regarding 737 wing problems. Not good.
Why so? It sounds as though the batch of faulty track parts have been identified and traced to a specific set of commercial aircraft. I haven't seen any indication that any of them ended up in the Navy P-8s. But even if they did, it's a pretty simple fix to replace the tracks.
 

jsport

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yasotay

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Interesting that they don't mention the much delayed expendable sensor drones.
The USAF could buy and call them Arsenal Planes.
Pcshtt! Next thing you know, the ARMY (!!!) will want to get P8's and call it Aerial Artillery Planes.
 

Grey Havoc

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By most accounts the RAF is not happy at all with the P-8.
 

Hood

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By most accounts the RAF is not happy at all with the P-8.
Agreed, source required. I've not come across anything, even on the more vocal commentary defence news sites.
 

Grey Havoc

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Sorry for the delay, my initial attempt at posting a long reply evaporated for some reason when I tried to fix a formatting glitch (figures).

At the moment I can't find the relevant links again, but the concerns I believe that are being raised (apart from those that are not really the aircraft's fault, such as the on-going basing fiasco) can be more or less boiled down to the following major problems:

A serious shortage of spare parts, along with other logistical issues (the DE&S and it's American counterpart the DLA have been running true to form, unfortunately). The RAAF are in much the same boat. The USN are in a not much better position (which incidentally raises interesting questions about India and the P-8I).

The sensor suite is much less comprehensive than the Nimrods (or the P-3 for that matter), in particular with regards as to both the ASW and the secondary ELINT roles.* (That was actually a design feature, I should note. :rolleyes: ) There are also reliability issues with the sensors the P-8A does have. There are similar concerns with the EW systems.

Despite a recent announcement, there are still restrictions on operational low level flying, especially over water. Not to mention that overall flying hours are presently being restricted, in part due to the spare parts problem (no pun intended).

Even if that was not the case, the P-8A's ASW capability is currently limited, not only at low level but also at it's planned normal operating altitude. A lot of this is down to the fact that stopgap systems still have not been fitted to make up for equipment that is vapourware (not least the organic sensor drones that were supposed to make MAD and a lot of other onboard sensors 'unnecessary') or otherwise seriously delayed (e.g. HAAWC). The initial plan not to integrate the Sting Ray torpedo on the RAF Poseidons but to just buy Mark 54 torpedoes directly from the United States probably hasn't helped matters either. Even though that decision has been supposedly reversed, there still hasn't been any money allocated for the necessary modifications. There are also worries about ASuW capability, such as target acquisition under operational conditions. (The fact that the Harpoon missile is rather long in the tooth and hasn't received any real upgrades in ages has also been noted.)

Corrosion issues still have not been resolved satisfactorily. As a 'solution', I understand that Boeing has previously told the RAF and other operators to not fly low over the ocean, period. Which makes things such as hunting submarines and Anti-Ship warfare a trifle difficult, I think you would agree.

Major delays on the delivery schedule which was revealed last December seem set to continue, at best. I believe quality control is also still a very sore point with the RAF, not to mention the other operators, with the possible exception of the Indian Navy & the P-8I (though again I have to wonder).


*The United Kingdom isn't currently procuring the dedicated ELINT variant, which may have it's own additional issues.
 

Hobbes

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The sensor suite is much less comprehensive than the Nimrods (or the P-3 for that matter), in particular with regards as to both the ASW and the secondary ELINT roles.* (That was actually a design feature, I should note. :rolleyes: ) There are also reliability issues with the sensors the P-8A does have. There are similar concerns with the EW systems.
Wasn't the P-8 supposed to use the sensor suite developed for the Nimrod MRA.4?
 

Grey Havoc

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There were claims this would be so at the time. The defense procurement minister of the day, one Philip Dunne told Parliament that “some billion dollars’ worth of the program would be supplied by British companies. However it was delivered with US mission systems with nary even token British made components, a (partial) exception being the sonobuoys (Ultra Electronics, via the ERAPSCO joint venture with the American company Sparton Corp.). What British made content there is in the plane is much the same as that in commercial 737s, with a few exceptions such as Martin Baker crew seats and auxiliary fuel tanks from Marshalls (GE's UK subsidiary provided the [US designed] weapons pylons in addition to standard B737 flight management system components, a planned contract for a mission planning system upgrade apparently has not materialised to date). There are supposed to be more UK sourced equipment including weapons incorporated into a scheduled major upgrade in 2021, but I'm not holding my breath. I should note in passing that the plan to 'Anglicise' the Wedgetails appears to have imploded recently.
 

Grey Havoc

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Foo Fighter

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Is there any truth to the suggestion that the RAF have been told not to fly these aircraft at low altitude over the sea?
 

TomcatViP

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India use them with MAD sensors and doesn't seems to have any complaint to this day.
 
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