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Boeing P-8A Poseidon (737-800ERX) MMA (Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft)

hesham

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Hi,

A new program for US Navy the MMA (Multi-mission Maritime
Aircraft) is now fullfied by Boeing 737-800ERX.
 

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CammNut

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Otherwise known as the P-8A Poseidon. But a real programme, not a secret project. What does qualify for this forum, perhaps, is Boeing's candidate for the US Navy's EP-X requirement to replace the EP-3E Aries ELINT aircraft, which is based on the P-8.

The aircraft looks like this SIGINT P-8 variant initially proposed by Boeing as a replacement for the Lockheed Martin Aerial Common Sensor (ACS), a US Army/Navy platform that was cancelled after the mission system outgrew the Embraer ERJ-145 platform.

Note the raked wingtips. This have replaced the winglets originally planned for the P-8 because of concerns over icing of the winglets. This was a concern on the P-8, and not on the 737, because the P-8 will spend extended periods in icing conditions.
 

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elmayerle

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*whistles* That's way more room and better accomodations than the EP-3E has. If they get the current upgrader and maintainer of the EP-3E, L-3 Integrated Systems in Waco, TX, on board, that'd be quite the winner; esp. since this concern is already quite familiar with the late-model 737 family from their work on the BBJ. Too, they've also done considerable work on the E-6B/C efforts.
 

GTX

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What's so secret about that? It's what the P-8A Poseidon began life as: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

Regards,

Greg
 

sferrin

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There are scores of posts lately full of inane questions and comments and you're worried about a legitimate post? ???
 

Just call me Ray

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GTX said:
What's so secret about that? It's what the P-8A Poseidon began life as: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

Regards,

Greg
Looks more like a combination of Wedgetail and Posiedon to me. Maybe the program was scaled back, or the sensors got a lot smaller.
 

flateric

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OK, in this case this is early MMA configuration, rarely seen stuff.
 

GTX

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Hey, maybe its just me, but I thought the MMA wasn't such a "secret" project - its been in the open from the start and has developed into the P-8. Why not post this in the "Aerospace" area? If you wanted to refer to an earlier, unrealised proposal, then fine. Anyway, I simply asked the question "What's so secret about that?"

Regards,

Greg
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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No need for arguments here. It is a well known real program, but this is an early version, so its a judgement call based on whether we are discussing the P-8 or simply posting this early configuration.
 

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It's interesting to see where the program started, compared to the current P-8 config.

I'm more interested in the Orion 21 concept, because you just can't beat turboprops for fuel economy and long loiter during the ASW mission. From what I've seen, Orion 21 was an even more drastic overhaul of the P-3 than the canceled P-7.
 

Kadija_Man

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hesham said:
Hi,

the Boeing MMA (Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft) was based on the
Model 737-800.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2002/2002%20-%201908.html
Isn't this rather like the 737 Surveiller that the Indonesian bought back in the 1980s?

 

GTX

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Technically yes, although the P-8 and the whole MMA idea are light years ahead of the Surveiller and include a proper ASW fit out.

Regards,

Greg
 

Just call me Ray

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CFE said:
It's interesting to see where the program started, compared to the current P-8 config.
Which is why I'm interested in the apparent scaling back, or at least lack of, visible sensors compared to the original config.

GTX said:
Technically yes, although the P-8 and the whole MMA idea are light years ahead of the Surveiller and include a proper ASW fit out.
Not to mention the turbofans, much larger fuselage, and new wing the 738 airframe brings.
 

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Just call me Ray said:
Which is why I'm interested in the apparent scaling back, or at least lack of, visible sensors compared to the original config.
I found a couple of online mentions of Raytheon repackaging the APS-137 radar to fit in the existing mould lines of the 737--that plus some other improvements apparently turned it into APY-10. I'd guess that this early MMA design had the ventral radome to accomodate a stock APS-137 instead.

http://www.b737.org.uk/mma.htm
 

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What specific equipment are the fuselage blisters are for? My take is that the pic depicts a potential replacement for the EP-3E Aires ELINT aircraft, rather than the vanilla P-8 Poseidon.
 

TomS

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CFE said:
What specific equipment are the fuselage blisters are for? My take is that the pic depicts a potential replacement for the EP-3E Aires ELINT aircraft, rather than the vanilla P-8 Poseidon.
Give that man a prize. Going back to the original article, I see that the caption for this picture is "The Signals Intelligence variant of MMA will replace the EP-3."

In articles about the new EPX competition to replace the EP-3, Boeing reps have said that their original (c. 2002) proposal -- which this photo illustrates -- included a Search & Attack model (the ASW baseline) and a Surveillance and Intelligence model (an EP-3 replacement).

http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=3146195
 

LowObservable

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Since it's a Flight drawing, too, it's probably more their concept than Boeing's - a 737MMA with an ACS-like sensor fit.
 

CFE

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Would it make sense to incorporate the ELINT package and ASW package in the same airframe? I would assume that the EP-8 would have had only the ELINT equipment in the standard P-8 airframe. The point is moot now, as the EP-8 has been cancelled.
 

TomS

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CFE said:
Would it make sense to incorporate the ELINT package and ASW package in the same airframe? I would assume that the EP-8 would have had only the ELINT equipment in the standard P-8 airframe. The point is moot now, as the EP-8 has been cancelled.
Now that ACS has collapsed, the Navy is now running an EP-X program for which the P-8 airframe is the clear front runner.

It would not be practical to conduct both the maritime surveillance and ELINT missions using the same aircraft--the ELINT mission package is big enough to occupy most of a 737-sized airframe by itself. Boeing has talked about mounting rotating collection antennas in the P-8 weapon bay, for example.
 

Triton

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From theworacle via YouTube:

Boeing animation of an anti-submarine mission with the US Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, schedule to enter service in 2013.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRWF8uVaK6M
 

Triton

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From theworacle via YouTube:
Boeing video of the first flight of the US Navy's P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine warfare aircraft, from Renton Field, Washington, to Boeing Field in Seattle on April 25, 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uNqBL-V80
 

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Counterfeit Parts Found on P-8 Posiedons (Defense Tech)

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich) just dropped a couple of very alarming tales during a hearing about counterfeit parts making their way into brand new U.S. military weapons.

Earlier this year, Boeing and the Navy found that the ice detection system on a brand new P-8 Poseidon was defective. The ice detection system is a critical piece of hardware designed to prevent tragedies by alerting pilots to the presence of ice on an aircraft’s control surfaces. Where did this defective part come from? China. A whole batch of a key piece of the ice detection hardware that was sent to the P-8 production line turned out to be used and worn out parts that were badly refurbished and sold to P-8 subcontractor BAE Systems as a new part, according to Levin. Boeing and BAE first became aware of the problem in 2009, he added.

The fake P-8 parts are just one of many examples of how counterfeit parts — often made from 1980s and 1990s-vintage junk computer parts that are sanded down and remarked in China and then sold back to the U.S. as brand new computer chips for advanced weapons systems. One witness at the hearing just described growing counterfiet semiconductors seeping into critical weapons systems as “ticking time bombs.”
 

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One of NAVAIR’s P-8A Poseidon's has successfully launched a Harpoon AGM-84D Block IC missile during a live fire exercise in California at the Point Mugu Sea Test Range.

Richard Benedikz - 11-Jul-2013

The missile scored a direct hit on a modular target on the first hot run.

The U.S. Navy announced on July 1 in an Initial Operational Test and Evaluation report that the P-8A Poseidon was ready for fleet introduction.”

Last month, the Harpoon was fired from the P-8A, resulting in a successful target strike.

With the program passing IOT&E, the P-8A program is on track for an initial operational deployment this winter when the first P-8A squadron will deploy with P-3 and EP-3 squadrons.

To date, nine low rate production aircraft have been delivered to the fleet and six test aircraft have been delivered to NAVAIR. According to the program of records, the Navy plans to purchase 117 P-8A’s that will replace the P-3C Orion as a long-range anti-submarine warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft.

Top photo: A Harpoon AGM-84D Block IC missile, which was released from a P-8A Poseidon (not visible), directly hits a Low Cost Modular Target (LCMT)at the Point Mugu Sea Test Range in California June 24. Bottom photo: A LCMT at the Point Mugu Sea Test Range is shown after the Harpoon successfully strikes it. (U.S. Navy photos)

http://www.key.aero/view_article.asp?ID=6460&thisSection=military
 

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Triton

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"Boeing Surveillance Plane Not Yet Effective, U.S. Tester Finds"
by Tony Capaccio January 23, 2014

Source:
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-01-23/boeing-surveillance-plane-found-not-yet-effective-for-missions

A new Boeing Co. (BA:US) surveillance aircraft deployed to Japan last month isn’t yet effective at hunting submarines or performing reconnaissance over large areas -- two of its main missions, the Pentagon’s weapons tester found.

Flaws in the $35 billion program included the plane’s radar performance, sensor integration and data transfer, Michael Gilmore, chief of the Pentagon testing office, wrote in his annual report on major weapons, which has yet to be released. He said the new P-8A Poseidon exhibited “all of the major deficiencies” identified in earlier exercises when subjected to more stressful realistic combat testing from September 2012 to March 2013.

“Many of these deficiencies” led Gilmore to determine that the P-8A “is not effective for the intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance mission and is not effective for wide area anti-submarine search,” he said in a section of the report obtained by Bloomberg News. The Navy plans to conduct additional testing “to verify the correction of some deficiencies,” he wrote.

Gilmore’s conclusions suggest the initial aircraft in the program -- which packs a modified Boeing 737-800 with radar and sensors -- aren’t ready for deployment. Among its primary missions is tracking Chinese submarines. Six of the planes have been deployed to Japan supporting 7th Fleet maritime patrol operations at Naval Air Facility Atsugi as part of the U.S. strategic pivot to the Asia-Pacific region.

Vice Admiral Robert Thomas, commander of the 7th Fleet, said in a Jan. 10 press release that the aircraft “represents a significant improvement” over the older P-3 Orion from Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT:US), “providing the opportunity to detect, track and report on more targets than ever before.”

Delivered 13

Chicago-based Boeing last month delivered the 13th of what’s to be a 113-aircraft program. The Navy in November declared the aircraft ready for combat deployment after determining the criteria for performing effective patrols “were fully met,” Lieutenant Caroline Hutcheson, a Navy spokeswoman, said in a telephone interview.

“The P-8A was ready, was needed in theater and continues to more than meet fleet commanders’ expectations,” she said. Hutcheson said Gilmore’s office has “consistently highlighted both effective warfare areas as well as recommendations for areas to re-visit.”

“Most issues cited have been collectively identified,” and the Navy has developed “software upgrades to correct deficiencies,” she said.

Boeing spokesman Charles Ramey said in an e-mailed statement that he hadn’t seen Gilmore’s report and was unable to comment directly.

Boeing’s Comment

“Feedback we’ve received to date is that the Navy is very happy with the P-8A’s performance,” he said. “As always, Boeing will work hand in hand with the Navy to support any issues that come up.”

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel, during a trip to Japan in October, lauded the P-8A’s “cutting-edge technologies.”

Gilmore spokeswoman Jennifer Elzea said the test office concluded the aircraft was effective in providing small-area searches similar to the P-3C Orion it’s replacing.

The aircraft also is effective in conducting “unarmed anti-surface warfare missions,” and its radar and supporting sensors “provide an effective, all-weather surface target search,” she said in an e-mailed statement.

Gilmore’s office also concluded the airframe is reliable, offering “significant improvements in hardware reliability, maintainability and availability” over the P-3C, she said. Overall, the Boeing system “provides increased range, payload and speed,” she said.

Raytheon Radar

Gilmore’s report said the recent realistic combat testing confirmed earlier results on flaws in the P-8’s radar “and revealed the operational implications of the radar’s limitations for some targets.” It said details are classified. Raytheon Co. makes the ocean and land-surveillance radar.

Deficiencies with on-board electronics to detect enemy anti-aircraft radar “limited threat detection” while “seriously degrading capabilities and aircraft survivability across all major missions,” the report found. Northrop Grumman Corp (NOC:US) makes the “Electronic Support Measures” equipment.

Elzea said the Navy is conducting additional testing “to evaluate several system technical improvements” that will be assessed by Gilmore’s office “as they are delivered.”

The Navy has plans for fielding two sets of aircraft upgrades to “improve anti-submarine warfare capability over several years” and has developed “an adequate test and evaluation master plan” to evaluate improvements, she said.

To contact the reporter on this story: Tony Capaccio in Washington at acapaccio@bloomberg.net

To contact the editor responsible for this story: John Walcott at jwalcott9@bloomberg.net
 

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Boeing Receives $2.4 Billion Contract for 16 P-8A Poseidon Aircraft
US Navy orders 1st full-rate production lot

SEATTLE, Feb. 26, 2014 -- Boeing's [NYSE: BA] P-8A Poseidon program will enter full production, following a $2.4 billion contract award from the U.S. Navy for 16 additional aircraft that will bolster maritime patrol capabilities.

The order, which will take the total fleet to 53, marks a transition from preliminary low-rate production.

Boeing has delivered 13 P-8As to the Navy, which deployed its first patrol squadron to Kadena, Japan in December 2013 and has been conducting operational missions since then.

"This milestone is a testament to the incredible effort and dedication of the team to deliver the P-8A to the fleet as planned," Navy P-8A program manager Capt. Scott Dillon said. "The future of the Maritime Patrol and Reconnaissance community has begun to make history with the P-8As already delivered to the fleet. These full-rate production aircraft will give us the opportunity to deliver the best system through a cost-effective procurement contract."

Based on Boeing's Next-Generation 737-800 commercial airplane, the P-8A will enhance the service's anti-submarine, anti-surface warfare and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities. Overall, the Navy plans to purchase 117 P-8As to replace its P-3 fleet.

"This contract reflects the success of the program and enables us to continue delivering an advanced, cost-effective maritime patrol aircraft to the Navy," added Rick Heerdt, Boeing vice president and P-8 program manager. "We delivered eight P-8s, all on or ahead of schedule in 2013, and we intend to keep that streak going in 2014."

Boeing assembles the P-8A aircraft in the same facility where it builds all its 737 aircraft. The Poseidon team uses a first-in-industry in-line production process that draws on Boeing's Next-Generation 737 system and has resulted in cost and schedule savings.

Boeing's industry team includes CFM International, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Spirit AeroSystems, BAE Systems and GE Aviation.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/Boeing-Receives-2-4-Billion-Contract-for-16-P-8A-Poseidon-Aircraft
 

hesham

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seruriermarshal said:
Boeing Receives $2.4 Billion Contract for 16 P-8A Poseidon Aircraft
US Navy orders 1st full-rate production lot

SEATTLE, Feb. 26, 2014 -- Boeing's [NYSE: BA] P-8A Poseidon program will enter full production, following a $2.4 billion contract award from the U.S. Navy for 16 additional aircraft that will bolster maritime patrol capabilities.

The order, which will take the total fleet to 53, marks a transition from preliminary low-rate production.

Boeing has delivered 13 P-8As to the Navy, which deployed its first patrol squadron to Kadena, Japan in December 2013 and has been conducting operational missions since then.

"This milestone is a testament to the incredible effort and dedication of the team to deliver the P-8A to the fleet as planned," Navy P-8A program manager Capt. Scott Dillon said. "The future of the Maritime Patrol and Reconnaissance community has begun to make history with the P-8As already delivered to the fleet. These full-rate production aircraft will give us the opportunity to deliver the best system through a cost-effective procurement contract."

Based on Boeing's Next-Generation 737-800 commercial airplane, the P-8A will enhance the service's anti-submarine, anti-surface warfare and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities. Overall, the Navy plans to purchase 117 P-8As to replace its P-3 fleet.

"This contract reflects the success of the program and enables us to continue delivering an advanced, cost-effective maritime patrol aircraft to the Navy," added Rick Heerdt, Boeing vice president and P-8 program manager. "We delivered eight P-8s, all on or ahead of schedule in 2013, and we intend to keep that streak going in 2014."

Boeing assembles the P-8A aircraft in the same facility where it builds all its 737 aircraft. The Poseidon team uses a first-in-industry in-line production process that draws on Boeing's Next-Generation 737 system and has resulted in cost and schedule savings.

Boeing's industry team includes CFM International, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Spirit AeroSystems, BAE Systems and GE Aviation.

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/Boeing-Receives-2-4-Billion-Contract-for-16-P-8A-Poseidon-Aircraft

Good news.
 

Triton

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Funny how these headlines and articles characterize the P-8 Poseidon as a "spy plane."

"Abbott Government to buy eight new Boeing P-8A Poseidon spy planes"
http://www.news.com.au/national/abbott-government-to-buy-eight-new-boeing-p8a-poseidon-spy-planes/story-fncynjr2-1226833661509

"UPDATE 1-Boeing wins $2.1 billion contract for 16 more P-8 spy planes"
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/25/boeing-poseidon-idUSL1N0LU2CE20140225
 

F-14D

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Triton said:
Funny how these headlines and articles characterize the P-8 Poseidon as a "spy plane."
That's OK, I watched the crawl on one of the cable news networks explain that the P-8 spy plane was the replacement for the P-3 spy plane... at least they're consistent!
 

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F-14D said:
Triton said:
Funny how these headlines and articles characterize the P-8 Poseidon as a "spy plane."
That's OK, I watched the crawl on one of the cable news networks explain that the P-8 spy plane was the replacement for the P-3 spy plane... at least they're consistent!
In fairness, the only P-3 that's really penetrated into the public consciousness is the EP-3 Aries brought down in China a few years ago.
 

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So when will the RAF be getting some to replace the much missed Nimrod?
 

GTX

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Madurai said:
In fairness, the only P-3 that's really penetrated into the public consciousness is the EP-3 Aries brought down in China a few years ago.

That might be the case in the USA but in Australia they have had far more recognition for their search and rescue operation involvement over the years.
 

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FighterJock said:
So when will the RAF be getting some to replace the much missed Nimrod?
Most likely post 2020 if they go with it, i suspect they will do a requirement in the 2015 SDSR and probably come up with a mixed solution like Australia with a force of P-8 and Global Hawks or similar UAV
 
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