Big Gun submarines

Boxman

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covert_shores said:
HMS X-1 (not an X-Craft!!!) built in 1920s. The guns were only 5.2" but mounted in twin enclosed turrets. For a time she was the largest submarine in the world. Very cool boat.

The British K-Class is also worth a look in, definitely cruiser submarines although the guns are less big.
Here is almost nine minutes of British Pathe newsreel footage of the Royal Navy's "submarine cruiser" HMS X.1 at sea, circa 1925.

YouTube: British Pathé - "The Undersea Battleship Arrives (1925)" - FILM ID:372.09
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-QQtjqYo6Q
 

Foo Fighter

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K class were 'fleet' boats, not cruiser submarines. Their task was screening the surface ships. Stick to 'M' class.

Not having a go at anyone, pointing out an error is all.
 

Kevin Renner

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I've wondered if it would of been possible to mount a self contained rocket launch system using the shore bombardment rockets employed in WWII amphibious landings on a Gato Class and use them for attacking Japanese held islands with the object of targeting airfields. If possible it would be a lot cheaper than employing a carrier with it's surface group. Fire off the rockets. Submerge, cast off the rocket pod and let it sink. The sub then goes off to do what subs do.
 

GWrecks

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Kevin Renner said:
I've wondered if it would of been possible to mount a self contained rocket launch system using the shore bombardment rockets employed in WWII amphibious landings on a Gato Class and use them for attacking Japanese held islands with the object of targeting airfields. If possible it would be a lot cheaper than employing a carrier with it's surface group. Fire off the rockets. Submerge, cast off the rocket pod and let it sink. The sub then goes off to do what subs do.
Didn't that one Soviet amphibious assault submarine have a bunch of rocket tubes for shore bombardment?

I forget the source that said that, though. GlobalSecurity maybe?

EDIT: Think it was Project 621 - the first well-known amphibious assault submarine proposal.
 

Grey Havoc

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Wurger said:
How is your mastery of the beatiful italian language? Please read:

http://www.marina.difesa.it/conosciamoci/editoria/marivista/Documents/2011/12_dicembre/breve_storia_del_sommergibile_cannoniere.pdf

Any appreciation of artillery submarines would be extremely incomplete if the german examples (and there are plenty) weren`t mentioned. Mind especially pages 53 to 58, with a proposed U-Kreuzer (more than 7000 tons) with two single turrets, each with a 210mm cannon. It stemmed from Professor Oswald Flamm who, besides submarines, designed torpedos. It was to have a trilobed hull, a simplification of it (lazy 8) being present in the japanese I-400.
There was also another U-Kreuzer (Type XI) designed around 1937-38, with two twin turrets utilizing the 12.7 cm/45 SK C/34 gun (5 inch, or 127mm). Six torpedo tubes, four forward and two rear. Was intended to be able to carry a single Ar 231 spotter aircraft. Compliment 110 crew and officers. Four were ordered from the AG Weser yard in Bremen in early 1939, but only one (U-112) had been laid down at the outbreak of WWII and the rest were shelved. U-112's fate is uncertain, though there have been unconfirmed reports that she was requisitioned by & completed for the Sicherheitsdienst for use in cloak and dagger operations.
 

airman

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The Dutch submarine concept of 1943-1944 about a 1,125 tons submarine armed with 2 cannon of 2,4 inch
all technical data on

http://www.hisutton.com/Dutch_WW2_Subs.html
 

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covert_shores

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Thanks for the reference to my site!

Yes, what I think is most interesting about the Dutch designs is a) triple-hull b) omission of Dutch snort mast. By then big gun subs were less credible anyway
 

chimeric oncogene

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Are railguns compatible with the Vertical Gun concept? Can you have a Vertical Railgun for Advanced Ships?

VGAS, from what I have seen on this board, needed a large finned rocket-assisted round to provide the round with enough maneuvering capability to hit targets away from the vertical. Given the small projectile sizes commonly described for railguns (<50kg sabot-dart-like rather than 100-kg plus rounds), does this mean a railgun VGAS does not make sense?

One might think that a VGAS could be built with light gas gun propulsion or liquid propellant, but a railgun sounds iffy.
 

Grey Havoc

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Something like a gauss rifle (also known as a coilgun) might be more practical than a railgun for a VGAS application.
 

Grey Havoc

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In theory at least, it would be easier to build a coilgun that can handle larger munitions than an equivalent railgun, further to that a railgun is relatively more complex and expensive to build & maintain than a coilgun. Another factor is that a compact coilgun (for example one that could be incorporated into a VLS cell) is easier to design and implement than a compact railgun. The trade off of course is that coilguns are generally less powerful than railguns.
 

TomS

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In theory at least, it would be easier to build a coilgun that can handle larger munitions than an equivalent railgun, further to that a railgun is relatively more complex and expensive to build & maintain than a coilgun. Another factor is that a compact coilgun (for example one that could be incorporated into a VLS cell) is easier to design and implement than a compact railgun. The trade off of course is that coilguns are generally less powerful than railguns.
On the flip-size, vertical guns only achieve significant range when they achieve very high Max Ordinates, because the rounds need to have altitude to glide out after they tip over. And the way to get high MaxOrd is with a high muzzle velocity. That may favor railguns, since coilguns will face possible limitations on maximum acceleration because electromagnets take finite time to build and dissipate their magnetic fields.
 

jsport

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Next generation energitics would allow a rocket assist roumd firing VLS to achieve very high Max Ordinates and therefore would have a preferable range maybe even space.
but politics prevents the better solution.
 

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Russian submarines:
Ch. A. Del-Proposto (Italian) project (1916): - 2300/2500 ton, 25/7.5 knots, lenght 91 m, width 7.8 m, weapon: 2x6" L/45, 4x4" L/60 guns
Bazilevskiy projects (1930th):
"Cruiser" - 6400/8640 ton, 30/11 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13 m, main battery: 3x2x150 mm L/40 recoiless guns
"Battleship" - 6900/9315 ton, 24/9 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13.5 m, main battery: 3x300 mm L/40 recoiless guns
Malinin underwater cruiser "Maximum" (1921) - 20000+ ton, 30/15 knots, 3 inch armour, 6x2x8" guns
 

Avimimus

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So 6 forward tubes with reloads, 10 lateral tubes with reloads, at least one rearward firing tube (no reloads), 2x152mm & 2x102mm guns, and a kindof pump-jet like propulsion system? The sail design reminds me a lot of the French submarine Mariotte/Q74!

What are the sources of your info?
 

TomS

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Bazilevskiy projects (1930th):
"Cruiser" - 6400/8640 ton, 30/11 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13 m, main battery: 3x2x150 mm L/40 recoiless guns
"Battleship" - 6900/9315 ton, 24/9 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13.5 m, main battery: 3x300 mm L/40 recoiless guns
These two are presumably using recoilless guns designed by Leonid Kurchevsky in the 1920s/30s. Those tended not to be great weapons, and Kurchevsky himself was executed in the late 1930s.
 

Avimimus

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Bazilevskiy projects (1930th):
"Cruiser" - 6400/8640 ton, 30/11 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13 m, main battery: 3x2x150 mm L/40 recoiless guns
"Battleship" - 6900/9315 ton, 24/9 knots, lenght 185 m, width 13.5 m, main battery: 3x300 mm L/40 recoiless guns
These two are presumably using recoilless guns designed by Leonid Kurchevsky in the 1920s/30s. Those tended not to be great weapons, and Kurchevsky himself was executed in the late 1930s.
True... but there was a lot of optimism about their light weight (and even potential for auto-loaders) prior to the discovery of their dismal ballistic performance. They also seem promising from a submarine if they could be loaded before surfacing and used 'M-class style' at relatively close ranges. Certainly cheaper than torpedoes for merchant raiding and of similar accuracy.
 
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