Atlas FCA-1 Carver fighter project

[BLACK_MAMBA]

The thrust increase (10%) was achieved, but apparently the goals set out for weight reduction was not.

Best I have heard from people involved was the eventual thrust increase was not near 10%...

Edit:
Cheetah C and F1 manuals give the same bench performance figures for their engines. Most Atar plus work seems to have happened in the late 1990's too. Thus the 10% performance improvement number being met sounds a bit wishful to me... Reliability improvement and improved reaction time is all I can find. Both woukd have been helpful to Carver though.

 

[kaiserbill]

Best I have heard from people involved was the eventual thrust increase was not near 10%...

Edit:
Cheetah C and F1 manuals give the same bench performance figures for their engines. Most Atar plus work seems to have happened in the late 1990's too. Thus the 10% performance improvement number being met sounds a bit wishful to me... Reliability improvement and improved reaction time is all I can find. Both woukd have been helpful to Carver though.

Do you further info?
From what I was told, the thrust increase was achieved with the same TBO and reliability as the vanilla 9k50.
When the situation regarding conflict changed with the end of the Cold War, it was decided for peacetime operations (in Cheetah) to trade that thrust increase into better reliability and TBO over the vanilla 9k50 figures instead for economy reasons.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Do you further info?
From what I was told, the thrust increase was achieved with the same TBO and reliability as the vanilla 9k50.
When the situation regarding conflict changed with the end of the Cold War, it was decided for peacetime operations (in Cheetah) to trade that thrust increase into better reliability and TBO over the vanilla 9k50 figures instead for economy reasons.

Interesting. First I hear that the desired thrust increase was actually achieved. All comments I have seen and noted over the years only point to the improvements mentioned above. I have yet to come across comments on a meaningful performance increase.

Logically it makes sense that one could convert greater reliability into additional thrust or vice versa. How much more is questionable. That exact issue apparently plagued the SMR too. Brilliant in full power mode, but once detuned to get any meaningful hours in the aircraft closer to a western style of use its performance dropped to equal or less than the Atar depending on the flight regime. A big factor into why it was not persued further.

 

[lancer21]

I find it very interesting that negotiation with USSR for SMR-95 started from 1987 if i understand correctly. So if the apartheid regime somehow survived you'd probably have the Carver either single or twin powered by SMR-95s, and maybe even have the Cheetahs and F1s re-engined.
Perhaps it might have been clarified previously, but was it decided if the definitive Carver would have been a single or a twin-engined design?

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Interesting. First I hear that the desired thrust increase was actually achieved. All comments I have seen and noted over the years only point to the improvements mentioned above. I have yet to come across comments on a meaningful performance increase.

Logically it makes sense that one could convert greater reliability into additional thrust or vice versa. How much more is questionable. That exact issue apparently plagued the SMR too. Brilliant in full power mode, but once detuned to get any meaningful hours in the aircraft closer to a western style of use its performance dropped to equal or less than the Atar depending on the flight regime. A big factor into why it was not persued further.

There seems to have been some link to Cheetah C and the Atar Gratification program mentioning around 300kg or a 4%* thrust improvement which sounds more realistic to me although I guess one could run the engine hotter and get that figure higher if needed.

*The figures I have match the standard 09k50 but they might be out of date and the upgrade was introduced later which would link better to the late 1990's Atar Plus projects.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

I find it very interesting that negotiation with USSR for SMR-95 started from 1987 if i understand correctly. So if the apartheid regime somehow survived you'd probably have the Carver either single or twin powered by SMR-95s, and maybe even have the Cheetahs and F1s re-engined.
Perhaps it might have been clarified previously, but was it decided if the definitive Carver would have been a single or a twin-engined design?

There is no definitive Carver version really, rather two overall concepts of either single or twin engined. The single progressed the farthest.

The SMR would have been the logical choice, but as mentioned, the SAAF would have needed to change their engine maintenance philosophy quite a bit. Would they have accepted that? Given they didn't push the upgrade further despite all the huge claimed performance improvements I am not so sure the realistic operational side of the project was as succesful.