Atlas FCA-1 Carver fighter project

[MadRat]

This is an interesting thread. I just assumed Carver was an attempt at an indigenous version of Cheetah.

Maybe they should have went with a Spey at one time, but by the time sanctions rolled around the writing was on the wall.

 

[Bladerunner]

Another render from Facebook posted recently. Attractive aircraft!

Indeed an attractive aircraft.
These illustrations are a joint venture between myself and the highly talented CiTrus90, as my two dimensional drawings are rather limited. I provided as much as possible reference material, and he turned it into masterpieces.

 

[Bladerunner]

The Spectre scheme suits it very well.

 

[Trident]

Regarding the SMR-95 engine, deep airframe modifications are unlikely. Most of the positioning to take care of CoG and thrust bearing structure would probably be accomplished through a lengthening of the jet pipe between turbine and nozzle over the RD-33 instead. Indeed, according to the manufacturer, the SMR-95 is fully 1210mm longer, in the same ball park as the jet pipe extension applied to the F110-GE-100 to fit into the F-14 airframe in place of the TF30 as the -GE-400. And those are larger engines to begin with!

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Regarding the SMR-95 engine, deep airframe modifications are unlikely. Most of the positioning to take care of CoG and thrust bearing structure would probably be accomplished through a lengthening of the jet pipe between turbine and nozzle over the RD-33 instead. Indeed, according to the manufacturer, the SMR-95 is fully 1210mm longer, in the same ball park as the jet pipe extension applied to the F110-GE-100 to fit into the F-14 airframe in place of the TF30 as the -GE-400. And those are larger engines to begin with!

The SMR-95 was already a custom derived RD33 to fit into the cavity of an Atar 09C/9k50. Even with it being a custom design to use the same airframe attachment points it is still mounted 600mm back from the Atar position. It would also still require a new tail section (much longer feathers) and intake trunking too as it requires a higher mass flow rate than the Atar. Not to mention totally new gearboxes and a variety of other smaller mods to the airframe for cooling intakes and gas exhausts.

On the Mirage F1 & Cheetah converted they decreased the size of the mice shock cones to increase air intake area plus reprogramming their movement. Carver is much more complicated due to its fixed geometry intakes that require entire ribs to be modified!

 

[kaiserbill]

One thing I have noticed is that there seems to be a difference in the LERX on the single engine display model originally shown, and this latest windtunnel model.
The LERX on the windtunnel model appears to extend slightly further forward than the one on the original display model, and now seems to terminate either at the forward windscreen edge, or even slightly in front of it.
This slightly extended LERX seems to be identical to the later twin engined model.
I wonder if this was a further refinement as the programme progressed...which then carried over to the later 2 engined design.

Edit: In fact, there are various very subtle differences that I seem to see.
Understandable, as I suppose the display model showed the basic configuration and shape chosen during the design phase, whilst the windtunnel model is there to test and refine things further.

 

[MadRat]

The ogive shape of the nose would suggest a scanning dish. That's a pretty big leap in engineering from the fixed dish in the Cheetah.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

The ogive shape of the nose would suggest a scanning dish. That's a pretty big leap in engineering from the fixed dish in the Cheetah.

It is an pretty open secret that the Cheetah C had the ELTA-2032 in the nose which has a moveable dish behind that round nose. Even the Mirage F1 in that needle nose had a moveable dish. The ogive nose is just an aerodynamic choice.

 

[MadRat]

The ogive shape of the nose would suggest a scanning dish. That's a pretty big leap in engineering from the fixed dish in the Cheetah.

It is an pretty open secret that the Cheetah C had the ELTA-2032 in the nose which has a moveable dish behind that round nose. Even the Mirage F1 in that needle nose had a moveable dish. The ogive nose is just an aerodynamic choice.

I haven't seen that version of a 2032 pictured in a Cheetah. Those radars are customized for each application, they are no all the same radar. The pictures of Kfir and Cheetah suggest they have related radars but that does not necessary mean either had steerable radars mechanisms.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

It is an pretty open secret that the Cheetah C had the ELTA-2032 in the nose which has a moveable dish behind that round nose. Even the Mirage F1 in that needle nose had a moveable dish. The ogive nose is just an aerodynamic choice.

I haven't seen that version of a 2032 pictured in a Cheetah. Those radars are customized for each application, they are no all the same radar. The pictures of Kfir and Cheetah suggest they have related radars but that does not necessary mean either had steerable radars mechanisms.

See the attached pictures of the Cheetah C systems trainer that used to be on public display showing the radar, and a Kfir C10 radar. Notice the articulable mechanism behind the dish on the Cheetah and the movement in the Kfir one. Both share the same radome...

Carver's nose shape was aerodymic. Yes, it would have taken a bigger radar dish but articulation of the dish isn't the reason.

 

[Graugrun]

It seems that we were manufacturing the radar arrays - subtle differences in it, compared to both the Cheetah and Kfir arrays indicate that it might be a refined/upgraded version, of perhaps even part of an own/new design.

Link below to the South African Radar/electronics thread, I scanned the below pic from an Avitronics brochure that's now many years old - it features in the first post of said thread.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/south-african-radar-ew-and-communications-projects.21217/post-208980

 

[MadRat]

These last two posts certainly fill in some voids in the information out there. So little was published on the two. There appears to be some double hinging on the Y-axis, if I'm seeing the articulating mechanism correctly. The tilting mechanism looks single-hinged. Brilliant engineering. Had to be a maintenance-intensive setup, but widely maneuverable in that confined nose. Cooling looks very restricted, which may have been the prime motive for elonging the backend profile.

 

[kaiserbill]

There is a long history of radar development and production in South Africa, going back all the way to the beginning of WW2, with the locally designed and built JB1 radar developed by Dr Basil Schonland.
Below is an excerpt from a CSIR brochure.
Of note is the timelines for the Fynkyk and Meccano projects, which basically fit perfectly with the Carver development timeline.
The Fynkyk and Meccano projects have been mentioned in the same context with Project Carver before....

"Throughout the 1970s radar technology at the component and subsystem levels were developed and used to upgrade
operational radar systems. Breadboard
demonstrators of a missile seeker and a pulse compression target acquisition radar were also developed and tested during this period.
During 1983 a contract was placed on the CSIR to design and develop a full
monopulse tracking radar technology
demonstrator. It was to operate at an
extremely high radar frequency and utilize the latest digital signal processor and microprocessor technology.
The Fynkyk radar, as it became known, was completed in 1988 and integrated in a mobile laboratory for field trials and demonstrations. During the past decade, Fynkyk was extensively deployed in support of engineering measurements and South African Air Force and Army force preparation exercises.

The Meccano breadboard radar technology demonstrator was contracted in 1990. The aim was to establish a variety of modern radar technologies in support of the new generation of radar applications. These included modern flexible waveform generation, digital pulse compression, pulsed Doppler processing and advanced Electronic Counter-Countermeasures (ECCMs).
This radar technology was transferred to a South African radar company, Reutech Radar Systems, who utilised it in the development of the Optronic Radar Tracker (ORT), now fully
integrated on the SA Navy’s Valour class frigates."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/30510883_Does_the_CSIR_have_the_sensor_capabilities_to_put_South_Africa_on_the_radar_screen

 

[kaiserbill]

Just on another note about the slight differences between the initial display model, line drawing, and the windtunnel model.

The spine aft of the canopy appears smaller on the windtunnel model, and the enlarged base to the rear of the vertical tail is slightly longer through the fin chord.

The overall shape seems more "waisted", or "curvy", than the various line drawings, which are simpler depictions of the overall general layout and shape. This is particularly noticeable through the ventral fuselage lines along the length of the windtunnel model. The model mounting base plate helps accentuate this.
Again, I think this was to be expected as detailed design of the aerodynamics progressed.

I wonder though where this windtunnel model fits in precisely. This is described as the low speed windtunnel model, and might not represent 100% exactly and precisely the final, frozen design?
There has been mention over the years by people who had seen them of Carver windtunnel models. (Plural)

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

I wonder though where this windtunnel model fits in precisely. This is described as the low speed windtunnel model, and might not represent 100% exactly and precisely the final, frozen design?
There has been mention over the years by people who had seen them of Carver windtunnel models. (Plural)

Based on comments from someone over at the SAAF Forum who worked on various wing designs at Atlas the posted model is at the very end or at least close to the end of the Carver 1 design phase. After that it sounds like they didn't build another full layout model but wing only models etc. I think it is pretty safe to assume we are looking at the final or very close to final chosen layout.

I know of at least two models existing. The big one posted here and a very small one used in watertunnel testing, but doubless there would have been loads more varying in size, type of tunnel and shape.

 

[kaiserbill]

I'd pretty much concur with that.
The (slightly extended?) LERX and wing is pretty much spot on to the twin engined display model we saw, which followed on from the single engined model.
Edit: Layout or planform only. The twin engine model has a higher mounted wing than the single engine.

 

[kaiserbill]

I know of at least two models existing. The big one posted here and a very small one used in watertunnel testing, but doubless there would have been loads more varying in size, type of tunnel and shape.

I don't suppose you..ehm...uhm...have a picture of the water tunnel model by any chance?

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

I know of at least two models existing. The big one posted here and a very small one used in watertunnel testing, but doubless there would have been loads more varying in size, type of tunnel and shape.

I don't suppose you..ehm...uhm...have a picture of the water tunnel model by any chance?

Unfortunately not... I merely heard about it being discovered in an CSIR storage room years after Carver was confined to the history books.

Somewhere, somehow, we need to convince the relevant people to allow someone into those storage rooms with a camera!

 

[Bladerunner]

I'd pretty much concur with that.
The (slightly extended?) LERX and wing is pretty much spot on to the twin engined display model we saw, which followed on from the single engined model.
Edit: Layout or planform only. The twin engine model has a higher mounted wing than the single engine.

The digital model Citrus90 and I created is based on mockup phase one, and the LERX is the most significant difference. Not sure if it would have been implemented, as we saw with the one Cheetah C windtunnel having no fuselage plug, but with a bulged spine that was never selected for the aircraft.

The form of wing design seems to have been carried over to the twins, although the twins appear quite a bit larger than Carver 1. The things that I'd love to know, are what the main landing gear and wells, as well as the cockpit might have looked like.
Some comparisons between the digital model and the windtunnel model, as well as the twin.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Here is something relevant to the thread. A future resin scale model of the first Carver design from a company called Scaleworx.

A really good looking aircraft!

 

[kaiserbill]

We have had some projected measurements regarding the original single engined Carver, (length, wing sweep?) as well as some educated guesses re other size parameters from the Project Officer description in Cheetah: Guardian of the Nation....but is there any educated guesses about the size of the twin engined phase?

I realise the only thing we have to go on is the model in this thread, which is at least from an official source.

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Besides the fibreglass display models, themselves naturally not exactly windtunnel accurate models, are still so far the only official twin engine design information out there. No sketches or anything else. Not that the twin engine design was very advanced from what can be gathered. This was still in the era were digital designs were in their infancy in South Africa so the twin engine reset in the project really hurt the chances of it going anywhere.

Still remaining hopeful we at least get some concept layout sketches one day.

 

[Archibald]

Quite fascinating to see Israel, then South Africa, pushing Atar & Mirage derivatives to the extreme end.
Meanwhile Dassault was following a parallel track: Mirage IIIE / V / 50 / NG / III-EX (1963-1988)
- plus the 2000 splitting in 1972-75-78.
Mirage III development did not stopped in 1982 with the FBW III-NG but actually went one last step further, in 1988.

Mirage III EX

 

[Thorn]

Besides the fibreglass display models, themselves naturally not exactly windtunnel accurate models, are still so far the only official twin engine design information out there. No sketches or anything else. Not that the twin engine design was very advanced from what can be gathered. This was still in the era were digital designs were in their infancy in South Africa so the twin engine reset in the project really hurt the chances of it going anywhere.

Still remaining hopeful we at least get some concept layout sketches one day.

Hi Black Mamba

Regarding the twin engine Carver iteration, after much searching in my databases I discovered the following: Not just twin engine but also twin vertical stabilizer's.

Enjoy...

 

[kaiserbill]

I think we are talking official.
The fibreglass display model of the twin engined model is an official model, but as stated, is really giving an idea of what the twin engined model looked like, as opposed to a developed wind tunnel model.

That drawing above is a non-official extrapolation of the fact that when the project moved from a single engined model to a twin, various configurations were looked at.
These looked-at configurations included single and twin vertical stabilisers.

From the shape and overall layout, the twin-engined variant was in the Mirage 4000 size category, whilst the single engine was in the Mirage 2000 size category..but perhaps marginally bigger due to the requirement for greater range needed by South Africa considering the much larger theatre they were operating in.

In any event, the displayed model of the twin engined variant is only one of the models.
It has been stated by some who have seen them, that there were definitely single and twin vertical stabiliser models.

It is a beautiful looking design either way.

Edit: Thorn..could you not perhaps tap into some of your previous contacts from your previous work in another life and find out more?

 

[kaiserbill]

About the size of the twin engine model:

An engineer on the project explained to me that the engine size and weight offers clues as to the eventual size.
This is common sense, and I knew that there was a rough "rule-of-thumb" regarding this before our conversation.

It therefore stands to reason that if the upgraded indigenous ATAR 9k50 was to be used, an aircraft in the same weight and size class as the Mirage 4000 would be the result.
Ditto for a Spey powered example.
If the Aerosud engine was used, some minor gains in making it smaller and lighter could be achieved...probably approximating around a ton in weight.
If the mooted under-the-counter purchase of the M88 had come about, then an aircraft perhaps only marginally heavier and larger than the Rafale.

A completely indigenous engine would only result in complete speculation.

The upgraded ATAR 9k50 had, amongst others, as two of its major goals:
1: A thrust increase.
2: weight reduction.

The thrust increase was apparently achieved (10%).
The weight reduction did not achieve as much as was aimed at before cancellation.

 

[Thorn]

About the size of the twin engine model:

An engineer on the project explained to me that the engine size and weight offers clues as to the eventual size.
This is common sense, and I knew that there was a rough "rule-of-thumb" regarding this before our conversation.

It therefore stands to reason that if the upgraded indigenous ATAR 9k50 was to be used, an aircraft in the same weight and size class as the Mirage 4000 would be the result.
Ditto for a Spey powered example.
If the Aerosud engine was used, some minor gains in making it smaller and lighter could be achieved...probably approximating around a ton in weight.
If the mooted undercounted purchase of the M88 had come about, then an aircraft perhaps only marginally heavier and larger than the Rafale.

A completely indigenous engine would only result in complete speculation.

The upgraded ATAR 9k50 had, amongst others, as two of its major goals:
1: A thrust increase.
2: weight reduction.

The thrust increase was apparently achieved (10%).
The weight reduction did not achieve as much as was aimed at before cancellation.

Hi Kaiserbill

The Spey, Aerosud engine (the indigenous one?), and M88 refer.

The possible acquisition of M88 brought me back to something I remember I entered into my databases. Hope I am not regurgitating something already covered here.

Nevertheless, something that I am going to look at as well is the earliest possible known, SA/Russian Klimov (SMR-95) contact, and the ultimate cancellation of Carver by de Klerk. Maybe there is some correlation to be had here.

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight and the unsuccessful attempt to decrease the weight of the Atar, I never really could see a modern ~4th generation combat a/c flying around in the later 90's powered by such a massive turbojet.

Like imagining the Gripen JAS-39 powered by the huge Volvo RM-8 turbofan.

Thorn

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

The SMR project kicked off in 1989 but I would guess high level discussions opening up the possibility thereof must have been going from 1988 already. Actual technical work only started in 1990 with the SA team going to Russia. They operated as Aerosud as pseudo independant from Atlas. Carver was cancelled in 1990/91 odd to the best of what I can asertain.

Other than an Atar powered single engine design no other engine/airframe combo to the best available information proceeded very far at all.

 

[MadRat]

Did they explore smaller options like Adour, TF1042, or a westernized RD-9 spinoff?

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Did they explore smaller options like Adour, TF1042, or a westernized RD-9 spinoff?

To date the only known options are the Atar 09k50 or upgraded variant thereof (Cheetah C's used the Atar Plus which improved the reheat response of the standard engine and produced some extra thrust but less than the original goal of 10%).

The reheat Spey 202/3 was seriously considered (they even managed to import atleast one example into SA which is currently at SAAF museum, Swartkop).

M53 never seens like it was an option - very little mention of it interestingly enough. France was happy to help clandestinely with Atars through Morocco for example, but M53 it would seem not. Later M88 (through Yugoslavia) was an option during twin engine studies alongside the SMR-95 (they even considered the Mig-31 D30 at an very early stage till they realised its bigger than an entire Mirage/Cheetah fuselage!).

Remember engine choice needed to be powerful enough to operate as an single engine type initially. Later the requirement changed to a much bigger design which then called for two powerful engines, not just one.

 

[kaiserbill]

I speak under correction here,cas I am going by memory..
I recall reading the M53 was looked at part of the initial Cheetah C program.
The IAI Nammer on which the Cheetah C originated from had as options the GE F404, PW1120, M53, and ATAR 9k50.

I suspect that it was easier to go the route of the 9k50 in that instance.

Interesting comment about a reheated Spey 202/3 being in the SAAF museum.
I never knew that...

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

I guess the significant support base for the Atar in South Africa certainly cannot be overlooked in its influence on the engine decision. But then too I believe one must critically evaluate the realism of the other options. If the SAAF had the chance of actually getting a more powerful, more modern engine for the Cheetah C and by implication maybe Carver or perhaps the wider Cheetah, Mirage F1 fleets too, I simply cannot see them not going for the option.

I think what played out was the other engines were most likely just a ruse on the international market (just as I believe Nammer was just IAI attempting to further cash in on a project already being paid for by someone else) conveniantly covering/including pretty much every readily available modern western engine at that time. I doubt much effort was made to actually design for them without a customer to fund the effort. The Atar was just the only engine IAI could realistically get in numbers without too many questions being asked.

 

[kaiserbill]

I would agree.
Do you have pics of that reheated Spey in Swartkop?
Interesting, as the SAAF museums tend to be very SAAF/local centric.
And the Spey 202/3 certainly was never used on previous SAAF platforms.

Either they were seriously looking at it for Carver, or it served as part of the technology acquisition program toward a local engine.

I'm aware of how eye-wateringly expensive a local engine would be, but there were definitely moves toward local engine design, as seen in the South African projects thread.
It's important to remember that South Africa NEEDED a new generation fighter, and thus a more modern turbofan... and nobody knew then that the Cold War would end so soon.
It's logical that the competencies being developed in that area were part of a longer term industrial plan, just as they were in other aerospace infrastructure and core competencies.
Bearing in mind that nobody could see the future, and that the Upgraded ATAR would clearly have to be an interim measure due to the age of its core design concepts.
This aspect, albeit a longer range goal, is clear to me.

 

[Bladerunner]

Besides the fibreglass display models, themselves naturally not exactly windtunnel accurate models, are still so far the only official twin engine design information out there. No sketches or anything else. Not that the twin engine design was very advanced from what can be gathered. This was still in the era were digital designs were in their infancy in South Africa so the twin engine reset in the project really hurt the chances of it going anywhere.

Still remaining hopeful we at least get some concept layout sketches one day.

Hi Black Mamba

Regarding the twin engine Carver iteration, after much searching in my databases I discovered the following: Not just twin engine but also twin vertical stabilizer's.

Enjoy...

View attachment 700038

I'm afraid I am responsible for this illustration. I made the mistake of being influenced by the fictitious illustrations from the book "Those who had the power" and combining it with the fiberglass display model I have seen.

 

[Bladerunner]

About the size of the twin engine model:

An engineer on the project explained to me that the engine size and weight offers clues as to the eventual size.
This is common sense, and I knew that there was a rough "rule-of-thumb" regarding this before our conversation.

It therefore stands to reason that if the upgraded indigenous ATAR 9k50 was to be used, an aircraft in the same weight and size class as the Mirage 4000 would be the result.

Doubt we'll ever see any official drawings, but we can only hope.
I have been toying with this concept, using the SMR-95, 09K50, Mirage III and F.1 landing gear, as well as Mirage cockpit dimensions to work into the illustration to see if it is plausible. According to this, the twin engined twin tail fin could have been just shy of 19 meters in length.
The top view shows the difference in size and location of the 09K50 VS the SMR-95.

 

[kaiserbill]

I have been toying with this concept, using the SMR-95, 09K50, Mirage III and F.1 landing gear, as well as Mirage cockpit dimensions to work into the illustration to see if it is plausible. According to this, the twin engined twin tail fin could have been just shy of 19 meters in length.

Which compares very closely to the Mirage 4000 length, which is also just shy of 19 meters. (18.7m according to released figures)

Nice drawing btw

 

[Bladerunner]

Thanks, the single tail fin model was the same length as the twin, although it had a very different air intake and engine layout.

 

[Scott Kenny]

Ooh, will have to snag a copy of that Scaleworx Carver-1 model. Gorgeous plane!

 

[BLACK_MAMBA]

Either they were seriously looking at it for Carver, or it served as part of the technology acquisition program toward a local engine.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread but it is worth remebering the head of Rolls-Royce engines at Atlas in conversation said the Spey would be the engine of choice for Carver.

It is also worth rembering that due to the extreme secrecy employed at the time people working on the same project might not even know they were working "together". The Spey would have been a far better option than the Atar, but obtaining it less likely. Atlas re-established very good relations from 1985 onwards in supporting the Buccaneer Spey 101's with spares so obtaining 202/3 does not seem impossible. One or two examples is one thing, but 50+ for a fleet of aircraft plus spares another.

Will see if I can find my pics of the one at Swartkop. Its in two bits and it does look like they have two engines. One on display minus reheat section and one in the scrapyard plus the reheat section, but not bolted together.

 

[kaiserbill]

Either they were seriously looking at it for Carver, or it served as part of the technology acquisition program toward a local engine.

I mentioned it earlier in this thread but it is worth remebering the head of Rolls-Royce engines at Atlas in conversation said the Spey would be the engine of choice for Carver.

It is also worth rembering that due to the extreme secrecy employed at the time people working on the same project might not even know they were working "together". The Spey would have been a far better option than the Atar, but obtaining it less likely. Atlas re-established very good relations from 1985 onwards in supporting the Buccaneer Spey 101's with spares so obtaining 202/3 does not seem impossible. One or two examples is one thing, but 50+ for a fleet of aircraft plus spares another.

Will see if I can find my pics of the one at Swartkop. Its in two bits and it does look like they have two engines. One on display minus reheat section and one in the scrapyard plus the reheat section, but not bolted together.

Hmmmmm......

Everytime the reheated Spey gets mentioned, it always reminds me of the Xian JH-7 saga..

And a brief reminder of that aircrafts timeline is:
Project start: 1983
First flight: 1988
Introduction: 1992

Rolls Royce not only exported whole engines to that programme, but allowed technology transfer that enabled local production and led to eventual local development. This was apparently in violation of COCOM restrictions.

There was also the Spey Mk205, which was considerably more powerful.
See https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/roll-royce-spey-205-25-000lbs-thrust-mystery.1682/

The Spey is something I had never really considered seriously, but when one looks at the timelines, the fact that SA used a Spey model in airforce service, the Chinese saga, licence production agreements with Romania during the Cold War, Fiat (who also did trade with SA during sanctions) building it in Italy...it is intriguing.