ARTEC GmbH Boxer Family of vehicles

mirco1961 said:
where is the order of Boxer in this statement?
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I think they might have edited it. There are versions out there that have this passage:
* Expanding our military co-operation to include land by establishing a joint unit comprising Qatari and British mechanised infantry under a historic 50-year defence land partnership agreement.This partnership, the first of its kind for the British Army, will involve the exchange of military personnel, permanent presence in both countries, and joint exercises and training conducted to Nato standards using the UK Boxer as a shared operational platform.*
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www.gulf-times.com

Qatar-UK Joint Statement on the occasion of Amir's visit

A joint statement was issued between the State of Qatar and the United Kingdom, on the occasion of the state visit of HH the Amir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad...
www.gulf-times.com www.gulf-times.com

That could certainly be interpreted as a commitment to buy Boxer. But the version of the joint statement that Google turns up on the Qatar MFA website with that text has been deleted.
 
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That www.hartpunkt.de site effectively blocks machine-translation. So, a cut-down and paraphrased summary:

DM Pistorius symbolically handed over first of 54 x RCH 155 to Ukrainian ambassador Oleksii Makeiev ... KNDS Germany to hand over 6 x RCH 155 to ZSU this year. However, handed over wheeled howitzer will not go directly to Ukraine, it will remain in Germany to train Ukrainian soldiers. Handover of the first operational systems is planned for April 2025.

According to Pistorius, Ukraine will receive another 18 x PzH 2000 mid-2027 (giving UA a total of 54 x PzH 2000, which corresponds to three artillery battalions. Thus far, 36 x PzH 2000 have been sent to UA, of which Germany has delivered 25.

German government had already agreed to production and delivery of 18 x RCH 155 to Ukraine in the summer of 2022. In mid-February 2024, the delivery of 18 more RCH 155 wheeled howitzers was then confirmed, with delivery from the end of 2025 to 2027. In mid-2024, the procurement of a third batch of 18 x RCH 155 was announced.
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The rest of the article was swipe/copy/paste brochure fodder ...
 
Just to add....there have been rumours that, as ever, there is some divide in Andover (British Army Land HQ) over the fact that RCH155 is wheeled...there are apparently others internally pushing for a tracked solution....with K9 still mentioned....hopefully Tracked Boxer with RCH155 quietens those voices (although why on earth weren't they asking for an Ajax based DONAR RCH155, remember the 2nd Donar prototype was based on ASCOD)....how that plays out is anyone's guess. Perhaps the wheeled faction will win out, perhaps tracked will win....or perhaps they will split the buy....but...if they go Tracked Boxer RCH155 in any number it surely cannot be an orphan fleet....we'd need tracked Boxer in other variants too...which with recent Ajax IFV variants displayed at DSEI is increasingly unlikely....

Hopefully someone internally is pointing all of this out....

But I'm sure the Army will choose the most logitistically, and contractually complex, route as ever....
 
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www.hartpunkt.de

MBDA Deutschland schließt Vertrag zur Entwicklung des Drohnenabwehrflugkörpers DefendAir

Der Lenkflugkörperspezialist MBDA Deutschland und das Bundeswehr-Beschaffungsamt BAAINBw haben gestern einen Vertrag über die Entwicklung und Beschaffung des Anti-Drohnen-Lenkflugkörpersystems DefendAir unterzeichnet.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
www.hartpunkt.de

Rund 500 Millionen Euro für Entwicklung und Beschaffung von Drohnenabwehrflugkörpern freigegeben

Der Haushaltsausschuss des Bundestages hat in seiner heutigen Sitzung rund 490 Millionen Euro für die Entwicklung und Beschaffung von Drohnenabwehrflugkörpern des Typs DefendAir von MBDA Deutschland freigegeben.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

Germany hands MBDA a contract to develop DefendAir (formerly the Small Anti-Drone Missile, itself a version of the MBDA Enforcer) for the NNbs Boxer Skyranger 30, which has space reserved for a missile pod, which is to take 9-12 DefendAirs.

www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS Deutschland mit dem Bau von Fahrschul- und San-Boxern beauftrag

KNDS Deutschland wurde eigenen Angaben zufolge mit dem Bau von 48 Boxer-Fahrzeugen für die Bundeswehr im Wert von etwa 358 Millionen Euro beauftragt. Neben 38 Boxern in der Variante „schweres geschütztes Sanitätsfahrzeug” sollen auch zehn Fahrschul-Boxer gefertigt werden, die der Truppe ab...
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS gets order for 38 Boxer Heavy Armoured Ambulances and 10 driver training Boxers, with an option for 150+100 more

www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS Deutschland mit dem Bau von Radschützenpanzern Schakal beauftragt

Nachdem KNDS Deutschland bereits gestern den Auftragseingang für den Bau von 48 Boxer-Fahrzeugen für die Bundeswehr gemeldet hat, teilt das Unternehmen heute den Auftragseingang für die Lieferung von Radschützenpanzern des Typs Schakal an das Deutsche Heer mit.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS gets order for 150 Schackal IFVs (Jackal, Boxer with the RCT 30 turret) for the Bundeswehr and 72 for the Dutch, plus options for another 200+48.

Busy week for Boxer orders!

ETA: https://www.hartpunkt.de/arminius-mehr-boxer-fuer-bundeswehr/

TLDR: Germany is working on a framework contract for 1800 Boxers under Project Arminius, probably to be signed in the first half of next year, which is likely to cover command vehicles, Skyranger, RCH 155 and troop transports (not Schakal IFVs, as orders for them go through OCCAR, so I presume this is the GTK APCs).
 
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TomS said:
I think they might have edited it. There are versions out there that have this passage:

* Expanding our military co-operation to include land by establishing a joint unit comprising Qatari and British mechanised infantry under a historic 50-year defence land partnership agreement.This partnership, the first of its kind for the British Army, will involve the exchange of military personnel, permanent presence in both countries, and joint exercises and training conducted to Nato standards using the UK Boxer as a shared operational platform.*
www.gulf-times.com

Qatar-UK Joint Statement on the occasion of Amir's visit

A joint statement was issued between the State of Qatar and the United Kingdom, on the occasion of the state visit of HH the Amir Sheikh Tamim bin Hamad...
www.gulf-times.com www.gulf-times.com

That could certainly be interpreted as a commitment to buy Boxer. But the version of the joint statement that Google turns up on the Qatar MFA website with that text has been deleted.
Click to expand...

www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS Deutschland mit dem Bau von Radschützenpanzern Schakal beauftragt

Nachdem KNDS Deutschland bereits gestern den Auftragseingang für den Bau von 48 Boxer-Fahrzeugen für die Bundeswehr gemeldet hat, teilt das Unternehmen heute den Auftragseingang für die Lieferung von Radschützenpanzern des Typs Schakal an das Deutsche Heer mit.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

Has an interesting paragraph that possibly relates to this:
"An exhibit of the Boxer RCT 30 wheeled infantry fighting vehicle was, for example, on display at the Qatari armed forces' stand during the DIMDEX 2024 arms fair, as reported by hartpunkt . Reportedly, agreements between the then-German government and Qatar stipulated that the Arab country would return Panzerhaubitze 2000 self-propelled howitzers and Gepard self-propelled anti-aircraft guns to Germany so that these could be delivered to Ukraine. In return, Qatar would receive Boxer RCT 30 and RCH 155 armored personnel carriers. According to an overview published on Rheinmetall's website, Qatar ordered a total of 22 Boxer systems in two variants."

I wonder if one set of orders pre-empted the other.
 
DWG said:
www.hartpunkt.de

MBDA Deutschland schließt Vertrag zur Entwicklung des Drohnenabwehrflugkörpers DefendAir

Der Lenkflugkörperspezialist MBDA Deutschland und das Bundeswehr-Beschaffungsamt BAAINBw haben gestern einen Vertrag über die Entwicklung und Beschaffung des Anti-Drohnen-Lenkflugkörpersystems DefendAir unterzeichnet.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de
www.hartpunkt.de

Rund 500 Millionen Euro für Entwicklung und Beschaffung von Drohnenabwehrflugkörpern freigegeben

Der Haushaltsausschuss des Bundestages hat in seiner heutigen Sitzung rund 490 Millionen Euro für die Entwicklung und Beschaffung von Drohnenabwehrflugkörpern des Typs DefendAir von MBDA Deutschland freigegeben.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

Germany hands MBDA a contract to develop DefendAir (formerly the Small Anti-Drone Missile, itself a version of the MBDA Enforcer) for the NNbs Boxer Skyranger 30, which has space reserved for a missile pod, which is to take 9-12 DefendAirs.

www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS Deutschland mit dem Bau von Fahrschul- und San-Boxern beauftrag

KNDS Deutschland wurde eigenen Angaben zufolge mit dem Bau von 48 Boxer-Fahrzeugen für die Bundeswehr im Wert von etwa 358 Millionen Euro beauftragt. Neben 38 Boxern in der Variante „schweres geschütztes Sanitätsfahrzeug” sollen auch zehn Fahrschul-Boxer gefertigt werden, die der Truppe ab...
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS gets order for 38 Boxer Heavy Armoured Ambulances and 10 driver training Boxers, with an option for 150+100 more

www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS Deutschland mit dem Bau von Radschützenpanzern Schakal beauftragt

Nachdem KNDS Deutschland bereits gestern den Auftragseingang für den Bau von 48 Boxer-Fahrzeugen für die Bundeswehr gemeldet hat, teilt das Unternehmen heute den Auftragseingang für die Lieferung von Radschützenpanzern des Typs Schakal an das Deutsche Heer mit.
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

KNDS gets order for 150 Schackal IFVs (Jackal, Boxer with the RCT 30 turret) for the Bundeswehr and 72 for the Dutch, plus options for another 200+48.

Busy week for Boxer orders!

ETA: https://www.hartpunkt.de/arminius-mehr-boxer-fuer-bundeswehr/

TLDR: Germany is working on a framework contract for 1800 Boxers under Project Arminius, probably to be signed in the first half of next year, which is likely to cover command vehicles, Skyranger, RCH 155 and troop transports (not Schakal IFVs, as orders for them go through OCCAR, so I presume this is the GTK APCs).
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Wasn't Germany in the process of buying some >3,000 6x6 vehicles developed under the CAVS program?

If so, isn't it a bit redundant?
 
Big_Zukini said:
Wasn't Germany in the process of buying some >3,000 6x6 vehicles developed under the CAVS program?

If so, isn't it a bit redundant?
Click to expand...
Now CAVs replaces the TPz Fuchs and M113 as the general workhorse of the Bundeswehr. There around a 850 Fuchs alone in service but remember thats for the starved current BW. Based on the plan + an reserve (afterall there gonna be (ab)used a lot the planed 3000-3500 CAVS alone are needed. The Boxer plan will include the new "general" SPAAG, as well as all units needed for the mittleren Kräfte while refilling stocks the Bundeswehr.
 
timmymagic said:
CAVS and Boxer are not equivalent capabilities.
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I know. But they have entirely different logistics. As opposed to making a 6x6 variant of Boxer or getting the 8x8 AMV instead. Seems like missing out on efficiency because none made the acquisitions in time.
 
Big_Zukini said:
If so, isn't it a bit redundant?
Click to expand...
If you think that's redundant, just wait until you find out we procured both the Schwerer Waffenträger Infanterie (30mm armed, manned turret) and Boxer RCT "Schakal" (30mm armed, unmanned turret). One intended to serve as infantry support, the other as an IFV and thus...supporting dismounted infantry. Why one wasn't simply adapted to also do the role of the other, well that's beyond me.


Edit: Highlighted the important bit for impatient people
 
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EmoBirb said:
If you think that's redundant, just wait until you find out we procured both the Schwerer Waffenträger Infanterie (30mm armed, manned turret) and Boxer RCT "Schakal" (30mm armed, unmanned turret). One intended to serve as infantry support, the other as an IFV and thus...supporting dismounted infantry. Why one wasn't simply adapted to also do the role of the other, well that's beyond me.
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I mean its pretty obvious why the Schwerer Waffenträger was adopted
 
Big_Zukini said:
I know. But they have entirely different logistics. As opposed to making a 6x6 variant of Boxer or getting the 8x8 AMV instead. Seems like missing out on efficiency because none made the acquisitions in time.
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Let me give you a counter question. Why do car makers built dozen of different Models from Sedans, SUV, minivans or Sport cars with different trims from econemy to deluxe?
Because there is a demand for something cheaper and something more expansive. Now CAVS will be the workhorse and be build in a larger Mass for germany than there are boxer procured (rn). As you can see we are talking about completly different scales of mass that Boxer couldn't for fill nor would it do that in the given budget.
 
EmoBirb said:
If you think that's redundant, just wait until you find out we procured both the Schwerer Waffenträger Infanterie (30mm armed, manned turret) and Boxer RCT "Schakal" (30mm armed, unmanned turret). One intended to serve as infantry support, the other as an IFV and thus...supporting dismounted infantry. Why one wasn't simply adapted to also do the role of the other, well that's beyond me.
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Then you maybe should look up again what there for.

Schakal is the new wheeled main IFV using the Puma turret for an logistic advantage and designed to carry 6 people. Its the wheeled analog of Puma. Now the Jäger also have another vehicle that needs its replacement. The Wiesel. This is where the (Boxer CRV) German's "Schwerer Waffenträger Infanterie" comes in. This vehicle is an direct analog to it and designed to work in similiar fashion. This is also why it doesn't have troops in the back (instead extra ammunition for now) and the abbility for direct contact between gunner / commander and infantery which was asked for.


(There was also an political advantage to buying Boxer CRV as Schwerer Waffenträger Infanterie if the goverment would have done it right).
 
I'm fully aware of the roles of the individual vehicles. That's not the point, what I criticized is that either of them could have been adapted for the mission of the other. There was little reasoning to have two different turrets, when the RCT 30 for example could have sufficed for both.
 
EmoBirb said:
I'm fully aware of the roles of the individual vehicles. That's not the point, what I criticized is that either of them could have been adapted for the mission of the other. There was little reasoning to have two different turrets, when the RCT 30 for example could have sufficed for both.
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Not only was the BW able to get an example mutch quicker (for testing the system and structuring the mittlere Kräfte) but Rheinmetall is able to deliver sooner because it is in production already. At the same time Boxer with RCT-30 have multiple advantages from an logistic, training and Delivery standpoint. Adapting Boxer CRV for „IdZ – erweitertes System“ would have taken some time. The decision for both didn't came out of nothing
 
A quick look the key turret difference seems to be the mounting of either the MELLS or Spike LR2. Might be a problem of mounting point or not being modular.
Then again seeing the order was made a day after the Government-to-Government treaty with Australia was signed it seems to me the main reason is some compatibility agreement between the two militaries.
 
EmoBirb said:
I'm fully aware of the roles of the individual vehicles. That's not the point, what I criticized is that either of them could have been adapted for the mission of the other. There was little reasoning to have two different turrets, when the RCT 30 for example could have sufficed for both.
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The Dutch mech-infantry are currently using Boxers with the Armoured-Engineer rear hull, not the APC variant, because they were originally bought to equip the engineers, but then plans changed and they needed a brigade set worth of squad carriers, so went with what they had to hand. Sometimes decisions don't seem to make sense, but they're the only option that was available at the time.
 
Seragina said:
A quick look the key turret difference seems to be the mounting of either the MELLS or Spike LR2. Might be a problem of mounting point or not being modular.
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You mean Spike LR (MELLS) and Spike LR2. Tho the bigger different is the manned / unmanned part something it seems the Jäger asked for.
Seragina said:
Then again seeing the order was made a day after the Government-to-Government treaty with Australia was signed it seems to me the main reason is some compatibility agreement between the two militaries.
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One could have said that it was a try for them to get Australia to buying Lynx...
 
GTX said:
Or in Australia's case, next to the ASLAV it is replacing:

C5j5wxbUoAA1f3Z.jpg
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And it's not like the LAV is a small vehicle, either...
 
Big_Zukini said:
So essentially just buying whatever's available regardless of logistics.
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Its not whatever. The reason Boxer is used should be clear but its high performance model and an extra 3500 vehicles of that class with moduls would have taken mutch longer to build and would be dozen times more costly. Which is why CAVS / Fuchs where in a competition (with some others) as the budget/ econemy alternative so they get the numbers they need and don't have to wait until 2050. Afterall people cry every 5 seconds that all happens to slow and when you do it faster its still wrong ....

CAVS also has a large european user base on the eastern front with 758 vehicles under contract and (with the german order) another 3.630 vehicles on the way. This doesn't include any other sale so CAVS alone will be on the same scale of production as the whole Boxer programm after that.

If you want a "stupid" procurment then look at the small buys of Piranha IV and V for the Fennek replacement and TAWAN. That will be in the end "only" 332 (6x6 & 8x8) with an option of another 280 more. So 1/10 to 1/5 of the other 2 fleets.
 
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kqcke for you said:
If you want a "stupid" procurment then look at the small buys of Piranha IV and V for the Fennek replacement and TAWAN. That will be in the end "only" 332 (6x6 & 8x8) with an option of another 280 more. So 1/10 to 1/5 of the other 2 fleets.
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When you look at the Boxer and Piranha together you can see why the smaller vehicle might have been preferred for the recce mission, but not why there might be an advantage over the CAVS. But for TaWAN the advantage likely goes to usable volume and max load capability, which might favour the larger Boxer over the Piranha or CAVS, but it might be something non-obvious, such as the ability to carry the loaded vehicle in A400M, or something or the sort that excludes it. And again the reason to choose Piranha vs CAVS is difficult to tell. It might be as simple as the Swiss already operating a similar vehicle on the Piranha chassis.
 
This just highlights the problems between the German government and its defense industries. They're one of the first nations to indigenously develop and manufacture an APS - and bought a foreign one instead. Their industries developed the Boxer but failed to be involved in its development enough to request variants that are now filled up by other designs, throwing 3 brand new wheeled platform families into a mix where there ideally should only be one.

It's not irredeemable though. At least the Piranhas could be later exported if they get things sorted out.
 
DWG said:
When you look at the Boxer and Piranha together you can see why the smaller vehicle might have been preferred for the recce mission, but not why there might be an advantage over the CAVS.
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I mean it in that way. Boxer was out simply because he couldnt swim and i think Piranha deemed the better protection but i would have go look that up again.
DWG said:
But for TaWAN the advantage likely goes to usable volume and max load capability, which might favour the larger Boxer over the Piranha or CAVS, but it might be something non-obvious, such as the ability to carry the loaded vehicle in A400M, or something or the sort that excludes it.
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Could be we likely never know until atleast full Specs are out or it is just time and or money.
Afterall based on the older PIRANHA 3 KOMPAK is TaWAN
DWG said:
And again the reason to choose Piranha vs CAVS is difficult to tell. It might be as simple as the Swiss already operating a similar vehicle on the Piranha chassis.
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Yeah and i don't mean it in a bad way tho this seems to be mutch easier to let go if you really want to streamline the logistic.
 
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Big_Zukini said:
This just highlights the problems between the German government and its defense industries. They're one of the first nations to indigenously develop and manufacture an APS - and bought a foreign one instead.
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Because they just werent up to date when they actualy want to buy an APS. At that point it was cheaper to buy Trophy (with a tracked record).
Big_Zukini said:
Their industries developed the Boxer but failed to be involved in its development enough to request variants that are now filled up by other designs, throwing 3 brand new wheeled platform families into a mix where there ideally should only be one.
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Thats not true. Again most is on Boxer already. Its Just not economical for them but hey next time let them buy Bugattis for the job a cheap Polo is needed
 

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