Argus As 412 and 413 engines

Nick Sumner

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Does anyone have any information on these engines? They were WW2 projects for liquid-cooled H-type engines. The 413 was designed for an output of 4000hp with conta-rotating screws but beyond that I have no information.
 

Justo Miranda

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From "Die deutsche luftrustung" (Band 4) by Heinz J. Nowarra ,Bernard & Graefe Verlag
 

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Justo Miranda

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Daimler Benz equivalent engine
from FLUGZEUG 2/92
 

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Skybolt

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The AS-413 used the cylinder banks of the JuMo 213, like the roughly equivalent JuMo 212 (another H).
The Argus 412 was much smaller, a 1000 HP engine.
 

Nick Sumner

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Skybolt said:
The AS-413 used the cylinder banks of the JuMo 213, like the roughly equivalent JuMo 212 (another H).

Did it bear any resemblence to the post war Arsenal H24 - which also used Jumo 213 cylinder banks?
 

Skybolt

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In the sense that they were all H. The cores were probably very much the same, but the dimensions and looking could be different depending on the placement of the compressor, accessories, etc. I'm looking for photos and drawings of the German derivatives of the Jumo 213 since a long time, but to no avail.
 

Skybolt

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BTW, Justo, any indication if the DB-H-24 used the JuMo 213 cylinder banks and of its "sitz in leben" late-war or alternative project to "X" 604?
 

Skybolt

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Oooops, sorry, already found the answer: the H-24 used the same cyilinder banks of the 603: there was an entire family developed based on the 603 cylinder banks: the Doppelmotor DB- 613, and the X and H.
 

Justo Miranda

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Here some doppelmotoren stuff
From Flugzeug 292, Deutsche Museum and unknown source
Post-1
 

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Justo Miranda

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Here some doppelmotoren stuff
From Flugzeug 292, Deutsche Museum and unknown source
Post-2
 

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Wurger

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Hi guys,

incredible stuff. Thanks for sharing. Does anyone have photos/sketches relating to these aircraft engines?

Klockner-Humboldt-Deutz DZ710/720;

junkers Jumo 225/222G;

Junkers Jumo 212 ( 2x Jumo 213, formerly intended to field 2xJumo 211 and proposed to equip the He177, the RLM ordered 12 "doppelmotoren as early as 1938 );

Junkers Jumo 215 ( 2x Jumo 214 );

Junkers Jumo 214 ( alias 213C "kanonenmotor");

Argus As 403 P5 ( 3250hp ) and P9 (2500hp);

More questions to come.
 

Skybolt

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Probably I've something on the Deutz, and a couple of Jumos, but, as co-moderator of this part of he forum I object the questions... You are strongly invited to reformulate the requests in a disaggregate way, that can be answered with homogenous posts (e.g. Deutz; Jumo diesels, etc.). Thanks.
 

Jemiba

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Interesting concept, not only the engine, but even more the shown
high-altitude fighter. Strange, I think, that it has under the belly, what
appears to be a bomb ... ???
 

Skybolt

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mmm, interesting, but that's is the AS-403. And I doubt that is an high-altitude fighter. More probably a fighter-bomber. The alternate powerplant is a BMW 802, not an high-altitude engine AFAIK. And the Argus Hs weren't, AFAIK, high-altitude engines.
 

Wurger

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hello guys,

first of all many thanks on behalf of Justo, Skybolt and Richard by sharing this tremendous material. The As403 P9 was to have a rated altitude of 42500 feet ( Jane`s figures ) with two speed superchargers ( not apparently pictured ). That would make it a High altitude engine ( without turbosuperchargers ). Any clues on that plane? It has some ressemblance to the Me309.
 

Skybolt

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Wop, you are right, the 403-line is different from the other Hs. The 412 was a derivative from the AS-411 V-12 using the same cylinder banks in a H layout (sounds familiar ? ). But there is a problem here: every source I have list the AS-403 as radial, in two versions, a P5 and a P9. Anyone can help clarify this ?
 

Jemiba

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"It has some ressemblance to the Me309"

Hm, I think, it's just a superficial resemblance. Planform of wing and tail
surfaces is different, canopy is smaller ... I would guess, if built, it would
have been larger, than the Me 309.
But maybe it was just an example for a possible installation of this engine
into a fighter sized aircraft .
(Me 309 3-view via wikipedia)

... and now I've spilled coffee over my mouse ... :mad:
 

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Wurger

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Hello,

I agree with you, Skybolt. In my literature the As403 is a development of the As412, an air-cooled 24 cylinder H. That illustration Richard granted us refers to a 32 cylinder H, also air-cooled. Jane`s states liquid-cooled radials. What a mess.
 

Nick Sumner

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Thanks everyone for this fascinating info, like Wurger I am confused as I have read that the As403 was a radial, whereas the configuration in the picture is an H engine in the BMW 802 class - suggesting that it is an As 413.

Richard, it looks as if the picture you posted is scanned from a publication of some sort - are there any clues in the text?
 

richard

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The info comes from "Der Flieger " N. 4 /1966
The article was about Dr. Gosslau ,Director of Argus.
Shame on me, : -[ I am not fan of Motor's history ,and made only the copy you have seen in the topic .
However ,Bruno Lange wrote :
As 403 :bigger developpement of As 412
As 412 : 24 cyl. H ,1000 hp .
As 413 : 4000 hp H engine with contra-rotating airscrews designed by F.Gosslau ,ready for trials in 1945.

I think that in Der Flieger there was a typo-error ,we have to read As 413 !
 

Wurger

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Hi Richard,

no typo at all, since it isn`t the As 413, whose image is well-known. The engine depicted in your scan is a air-cooled 32 cylinder. Probably there was more P`s other than P5 or P9 ( which is, I guess, logical ), not necessarily radials. Any more Argus engines depicted in that article?
 

Nick Sumner

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Wurger said:
no typo at all, since it isn`t the As 413, whose image is well-known.

Wurger, could you point me to a publication or a website with an image of the As 413 as I cannot recall ever seeing one. Better still, do you have one you could post if it isn't too much trouble?
 

richard

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In Der Flieger ,I don't know
In Bruno Lange book (Typenhandbuch der deutsche Luftfahrttechnik) ,2 pages describing (very short notices indeed) 40 Argus from 1920 to 1945 .
 

Skybolt

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I'm waiting (has been shipped two days ago) for the new edition (2006, I have the second, 1995) of Fulgmotoren und Strahltriebwerke (Die Deutsche Luftfahrt n.2). The index list a page on the Argus As-403 (and one on the DB-X-24...), so we'll see. If someone has already the book, please take a look and speak it out..
 

Nick Sumner

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Skybolt,

I take it you mean this book

http://buecher.hitmeister.de/flugmotoren-und-strahltriebwerke-deutsche-luftfahrt-kyrill-von-gersdorff-920475/?ent=1&ctype=1&source_name=bookfinder&channel_name=ean-buch-textlink

Could you post a breif review when you get it - I'm interested in buying it.

Thanks
 

Skybolt

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Ok. The second edition was 380 pages and super. This one has 130 pages more, so I'll presume is at least 35 per cent more super... :D
 

Wurger

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Hi Nick,

sorry for the late answer. The image is not exactly the As 413, but the Arsenal 24H*, which seems to be the same engine, and not the Jumo 212. You have the image in Kyrill von Gersdorff`s "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke", page 83. As said before by Richard, Bruno Lange in "Typenhandbuch der Deutschen Luftfahrttechnik", page 304, depicts the same engine, this time seen from behind. It is interesting to know that this "beauty" was developed by Fritz Gosslau. Probably Richard`s magazine as some hints. Unfortunatelly I do not have a working scanner at the moment, so I can not send the image.
* Bill Gunston states that the 24H-tandem ( two coupled 24H ) was actually run.
 

Wurger

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Hi Skybolt,

just wait to read about BMW`s radial projects `till 10000hp. And that is not all...Well worth the price.
 

Skybolt

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Yep. Since I have already the second edition it was down on the priority list... you know..
Arsenal H24. I'm personally not so sure the Argus 413 was really identical to the French one. Wasn't Arsenal in touch with Junkers ? French members help urgently needed: Archibald, Tophe ?
 

Nick Sumner

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My understanding is that the Arsenal H24 was based on Jumo 213 cylinder blocks.
 

Wurger

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Hi,

Arsenal was engaged with Junkers, so was Argus ( the As 413 is known to Jane`s as Junkers-Argus ), so was Auto-Union, but you will not say that the projected Au240C was a Junkers engine. Mikulin used the cylinder blocks of the BMW VI in its AM series, but you couldn`t tell it as a german powerplant.
 

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Hi guys,

back again, and this time to say that I was wrong. The latest edition of "Flugmotoren und Strahltriebwerke*" shows a sketch of the As 413 ( not named but specifications match it ). It is different than the Arsenal 24H. The book "Junkers Flugtriebwerke", pages 181-183 also corroborates the 24H as stemming from the Jumo 212.

*The book also as a photo of the As 403, and much more.
 

Nick Sumner

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In Justo's second post from 11th september in this discussion there are three images. The third image is a table with twelve columns. I have been able to figure out all but the function of the 11th column which is marked effkt. Mitteldr and is measured in kg to the square cm. To what does this column refer?
 

Nick Sumner

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Two more questions - what are the dimesions given in the pics of the DB X24 and the DVL H32 - I can't read them.

thanks!
 

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Nick,

I'm guessing that "effkt. Mitteldr." is for effective compression ratio with cylinder pressure in kg/cm3. Any German-speakers awake yet? :)
 

Nick Sumner

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Does anyone have a figure for the weight (trockenmasse) of the DVL H16 or the DVL H32?

Thanks!
 

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